SO MUCH HAPPENS in this episode, Talia embraces and Lucia rejects magic in science fiction, Doctor Who somehow gets us to cry over Daleks of all things, the Adam makes his debut (but is he really the Adam in the room?) and we constantly ask the question WHY WON’T PEOPLE LISTEN TO THE DOCTOR AND RUN!?
Lucia Kelly: Hello and welcome to the Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey podcast!
Talia Franks: I’m Talia Franks, media critic, fanfic enthusiast, and bad-tempered pepper pot.
Lucia Kelly: And I’m Lucia Kelly, expert at applied analysis, and king of my own little world.
Talia Franks: And we’re here today to talk about “Dalek,” the sixth episode of series one of Doctor Who.
Lucia Kelly: “Dalek” aired on the 30th of April, 2005. It was written by Robert Shearman and directed by Joe Ahearne.
Talia Franks: Reminder, that time isn’t a straight line. It can twist into any shape and as such, this is a fully spoiled podcast. We might bring in things from later in the show, the comics, the books, or even fan theories, and articles.
Lucia Kelly: With that out of the way, no one on this base is safe! So let’s get in the TARDIS! (Transition wobbles)
Hi there. This is Talia and Lucia from the future. This episode covers some triggering subject matter, so we wanted to put in a content warning for discussions of trauma, self-sacrifice, suicide, PTSD, acts of war, racial and ethnic cleansing, and death. Please take care of yourself and we hope you enjoy the show. (Transition wobbles)
Okay. So, the TARDIS has been drawn off course by something. It’s been called by a distress signal. Calling for help.
And the Ninth Doctor and Rose step out, and the Doctor quickly informs Rose that we’re in North America! We’re in the USA, Utah.
Talia Franks: Good, old –
Lucia Kelly: In 2012.
Talia Franks: Why are – just a quick question. Why are Doctor Who people so obsessed with Utah? I’m not knocking Utah. I don’t think there’s anything bad about Utah. I mean, I’m from the US (Lucia laughs) but I’ve never been to Utah. I don’t have any particular feelings about Utah. Like, I’m just curious as to what has drawn these British people to Utah.
What is the allure?
Lucia Kelly: As the non-American, I feel like Utah – it holds this kind of mystery and allure because of the whole Mormon thing. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: Okay? (Talia laughs)
Lucia Kelly: And so we’re all just kind of vaguely curious about how that happened, but no one has any details since like, “Well it happened there”. (Lucia laughs) And so it’s this vague curiosity with absolutely no base or any need to pursue it. It was like, “Hmm. Curious things happened there.” In the same way that you’re like, vaguely curious about other big American cities like New York or California, or – there are just areas that are like, “Huh, a lot of things seem to happen around this area. We have no access to that area. Curious.”
Talia Franks: I mean, okay? (Talia laughs) I’m a bit of a homebody, I literally have a mug that says “homebody” on it, and I have to admit, I’ve never been particularly curious about travel, (Lucia hmms) unless I have read a book that is specifically situated in a specific place, or watched a movie, or –
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: – a TV show that set in a specific place.
And then I will be curious about going to that place because I have read that book, or seen that movie, or if I know a person who lives in that place, then I want to go to that place. But like, (Lucia hmms) I don’t have something external that is driving me to go to that place, then I don’t have any interest in going there.
I don’t have that general gestalt curiosity about going places. I mostly am interested in going places because of specific triggers to go there. Even before COVID stopped people from going places, I’d never really been one for travel, or one for really wanting to go anywhere.
I mean, it’s kind of funny that I like Doctor Who. If I was offered a trip in the TARDIS I would probably say no. I would probably walk into the TARDIS, make the Doctor promise that they wouldn’t let it take off, and walk around inside the TARDIS a bunch, and then walk out, and stay safely in my house. (Lucia laughs) I’d be nervous even to go in there for too long, because I’d be afraid that it would take off while I was inside.
Lucia Kelly: Hmm. (Talia laughs)
Talia Franks: Like I might dip in to the console room, say “Ooh, this is nice.” And then duck out again. (Talia laughs) If I even did that much. Honestly –
Lucia Kelly: Yeah
Talia Franks: – if I saw a TARDIS in real life, I would be like, “Oh, that’s a nice replica.” If I opened it, realized it was bigger on the inside, and that it was a real TARDIS, I would go as far away as possible. I’m Clive.
Lucia Kelly: And that’s a good person to be. It’s a good person to be Clive. Clive’s smart.
Talia Franks: Until he died.
Lucia Kelly: He still died. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: Clive’s smart until he’s dead.
Lucia Kelly: Cause that’s like – He’s smart until he’s dead. Most people are. I hate to say this, like, I hate that I know logically and emotionally, like,I know with the entirety of my being, that going with the Doctor would be a bad idea. I would still go. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: I would not.
Lucia Kelly: Like, I know the balance of probability is that it would end very, very badly for me.
But – the allure of – particularly like, I’m actually not super interested in seeing alien planets. I just want to see my own history, the history of Earth. Like, there are so many things where I’m like, “God, I wish I’d been there”. Or like, “That would have been interesting” or like, “I wonder what really happened though.”
I want to know what really happened in a lot of circumstances. If I could just be like, “Yo Doc, can we just head on over to this specific area? Just for like, an hour.”
Talia Franks: I feel like wanting to go to the past is such a white people thing, honestly. (Talia laughs)
Lucia Kelly: I mean, yeah. Yeah.
Talia Franks: I gotta say.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: I have no desire to go to the past whatsoever.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no.
Talia Franks: Ugh.
Lucia Kelly: Fun stuff, fun stuff (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: I’m keeping my Black self in 2021 until it’s time to go to 2022.
Lucia Kelly: Yep. Fair fair fair fair fair (Lucia laughs)
Hmm. So this museum that they find themselves in is full of all these alien artifacts. It’s very exciting. There’s a milometer from the Roswell crash. There’s a stuffed- and we see the head of a Cyberman, which- I’m sorry, is this, is this a meta joke? I feel like it’s a meta joke. First of all, I feel like the production team had a field day, being like, “Oh my God, we can just use all of our past props. We don’t have to make anything new. This is great.” Like they just put everything in there. (Lucia and Talia laugh) “Put the arm of one costume there and the leg of another one there, we’re done!” It must’ve been a beautiful, beautiful day for the production team.
Talia Franks: Beautiful day for the production team. And all of that junk in Adam’s workshop was probably just random props. A hundred percent –
Lucia Kelly: Oh yeah, hundred percent, and stuff from junkyards and all that, what a beautiful day for a production team, to be like, “Your job today is to make a junkyard, a fancy junkyard.
Talia Franks: Yeah. (Lucia laughs)
Is to rifle through the production junkyard. Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. So the Doctor says “The stuff of nightmares reduced to an exhibit. I’m getting old.”
Is that a joke about how the Cyberman design is now not scary?
(Lucia and Talia laugh) I think it is.
Talia Franks: I think it might be. But at the same time, I have to say, I know that you didn’t watch past Matt Smith, but Bill’s arc and the way it ends is so fucking traumatic.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: And that’s the kind of Cyberman that she gets turned into. She gets turned into a Mondesian Cyberman, so she doesn’t turn into like the fancy Cybermen of the RTD or Steven Moffat era – Well, no, I guess it is Steven Moffat, but she doesn’t get turned into the kind of Cyberman that RTD created and that got carried over into the Matt Smith era. The kind of Cyberman that she gets turned into is a classic Mondesian Cyberman.
And so seeing that Cyberman head, I didn’t realize how not okay I was about what happened to Bill until I saw that Cyberman head, and I was like, “Shit.”
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: “That is still the stuff nightmares to me.”
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. I also feel – Cause the two big enemies of the Doctor are the Cybermen and the Daleks. Like, they’re the main guys. They always come back. I feel like it’s also a little bit of foreshadowing being like, “Look at this big scary monster, that’s a mainstay of the whole thing,”
So the fact that you get both the Cybermen and the Daleks, kind of in the same episode, feels like something. But of course, we don’t get the brand spanking new Cybermen until season two, which is fun.
Talia Franks: Honestly, after what happened to Bill, I can’t handle most Cybermen narratives anymore. Most Cybermen episodes, I just – I can’t watch them. Between Bill and Danny, I just, yeah. Which is a shame, because I feel like the Cybermen episodes in season two aren’t that bad, and are actually pretty good, Jackie aside, but we’ll get there when we get there.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. So I feel like this episode just takes full advantage of making Americans The Worst. Like, just… (Lucia laughs) Like, the hubris that is displayed, and the “Yeah, whatever” attitude feels distinctly American to me in a way that isn’t very flattering. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: Yeah, but I mean…
Okay. So the thing is yes, it’s making Americans seem like the worst, but specifically the Americans it’s making seem like the worst are all white men and that’s honestly – I know that if I say this, I’m going to get some, “Not all white people” bullshit at me. The fact is I’ve met some white men who are genuinely nice people. However, (Lucia laughs) I will say that there is a large subset that act a lot like some of the assholes in this episode. So I am unsurprised by the assholes in this episode.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. (Lucia sighs) So, we get introduced to Van Statten. He’s the worst. He’s just so horrible.
Talia Franks: Okay. So it’s a toss up whether or not I hate Van Statten or Simmons more.
Lucia Kelly: I hate Van Statten more simply because Simmons doesn’t get a lot of characterisation. Simmons is a torturer, but that’s kind of all he is. He’s literally an extension, he’s a limb, he’s an extension of Van Statten.
Talia Franks: Yeah. I just Simmons is… He disturbs me.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. But everyone gets to meet each other and we meet Adam. Adam’s here. This is Adam. Hi Adam. And to be honest, there are some lines we’re going to come to later where I’m like, “Oh, red flag, red flag, red flag, red flag.” (Lucia laughs) Like, he showed exactly who he was immediately.
But at the very beginning, he seems kind of all right. Like, “Look, I found this metal thing. Turns out it’s a musical instrument. I do all kinds of things.” But yeah, this whole, it’s like, eugh… Rose gets a few good moments being like, “Treat me like a person.” And ” I refuse to acknowledge your dick measuring contest” and all that kind of stuff.
Talia Franks: There was so much in that whole scene where it was just rapid fire between Van Statten and the Doctor. But there was so much- Like the Doctor – like the actING (Lucia laughs) in this episode, oh my goodness, can we give the acting a six? Can we give the acting a seven?
It was so… There’s this moment in the Dalek cage, every moment in the Dalek cage, like, when the Doctor was banging on the door to be let out, and then when he realizes that the Dalek is defenseless and then the moment where he’s just like shaking against the door, but then it turns into laughing, and then the closeups on his face, and then you see his lip quivering. And when he’s circling around the Dalek and then when he’s got his back to the Dalek. Just everything about that entire performance, I’m like, “Give this man all of the awards.”
Watching this episode, I was like, “The fact that Eccleston didn’t get another season is a crime.” A crime! (Lucia laughs)
Lucia Kelly: I think he only agreed to one season. He only ever agreed to one.
Talia Franks: I know he only agreed to one season. I know that there was beef with the BBC and that’s why Tennant got brought on, and that’s why he wasn’t in the 50th Anniversary Special, and he’s only just coming back now because there was some sort of issue between- from what I read, there was actually a whole thing where he got blacklisted from British media and that’s why he ended up having to seek- All his acting roles were international, in the US, for a bunch of years, because he literally got blacklisted from British media because of his beef with the BBC was so bad.
Lucia Kelly: I mean, yeah, he’s not, he’s not quiet, which is a reason that I adore him. Becau- (Lucia laughs) But-
Talia Franks: But yeah, so him coming back to Doctor Who is a big fucking deal. But like, I just want to talk with whoever at BBC decided to make beef with Christopher Eccleston and deny us a second season with him as the Doctor, cause like, as great as Ten is, I think we’ve established by now that I greatly prefer Nine. (Talia laughs)
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
So “Dalek” was, as we said, at the beginning, it was written by Robert Shearman and directed by Joe Ahearne. These are two brand new guys. This is the first episode either of them did for Doctor Who. And the quality of this episode is so much higher than anything we’ve seen so far.
Talia Franks: So much higher.
Lucia Kelly: And it feels like the first time that Christopher Eccleston has been given material worthy of him, like given material that he can actually properly work with, in a way that shows him off.
Talia Franks: The bars. The levels. I am invigorated by this episode. I want to watch it again.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, kind of. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: And actually I probably will because my roommate and I have been watching this together, and I just watched it without them, so now they’re out of sync. (Lucia laughs) So I gotta watch it again.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. It’s just an insane, an insane, insane level. First of all, it’s the first episode where we see the Doctor genuinely scared. And it’s also the first episode where we really see the dark side of the Doctor.
We have talked before about how he’s manipulative and he is a trauma victim, so he’s got that angle as well. Like, in terms of when you create a character, he’s got all these different sides to him, but this is the first time, where we see that the Doctor is genuinely dangerous, like really dangerous. And-
Talia Franks: Yeah. And Rose says it too. She’s like, “What about you, Doctor? What are you turning into?”
Lucia Kelly: Oh, God, that whole, ugh, all of it, like-
Talia Franks: And I told you when we were watching it, when I saw the Dalek, reaching for the sunlight, actual tears started forming in my eyes, and I was like, “How is this show making me care about a squid inside a pepper pot? (Lucia laughs) Am I really starting to cry about a genocidal squid inside a pepper pot? Is this me
Lucia Kelly: Yes.
Talia Franks: right now in 2021? Crying about a genocidal squid in a pepper pot?”
Lucia Kelly: Yes. (Talia sighs) Yes it is. And I know we’re seeing the praises of Christopher Eccleston. Billie Piper is right in there with it.
Talia Franks: Billie fucking Piper is –
Lucia Kelly: Oh my God.
Talia Franks: The acting!
Lucia Kelly: And the costuming helps with it a bit. They did her hair different. They dressed her differently. They’ve done her eye makeup differently. So she looks a lot younger in this episode. She actually looks 19. And the scene between her and the Dalek – literally anytime anyone’s working with the Dalek, it just elevates everyone’s performances to 11, which is insane, and shows real, true skill on the director’s part because – because Dalek’s aren’t real, right? The thing we see is a puppet. There’s nothing inside there – w ell, there’s a human inside there – but it’s a puppet. (Lucia laughs) The voice actor’s off stage, he’s doing the little voice, the puppets on the inside. It’s all – it’s all acting. It’s all performance.
You are acting against a metal pepperpot and you managed to pull out that performance. It’s insane, the skill that went into this.
Talia Franks: It’s mind-boggling. I am honestly shook by how good all of these people are. Every single one of them is just bringing their all to this. (Talia sighs)
I loved also how Goddard was able to make that shift. Like, her shift from being the assistant who is cutthroat, does whatever is needed, but is always differential, to suddenly like, “Oh no. I am not holding with this guy’s bullshit anymore.” And totally turns it on his head and takes over the entire operation.
And I’m like, “Oh! Got to hand it to her.” (Lucia laughs) But then also like at the end she entirely takes it over and I’m like, “Okay girl, I see you.” (Lucia laughs) Creates an entire empire. She literally stages an entire coup! An entire coup!
Lucia Kelly: Yes!
Talia Franks: Sweeps his empire out from under him, literally has his memory wiped, and has him dropped off in someplace that starts with an S. (Lucia laughs) “Oh, and by the way, I’m going to fill his life’s work with cement.”
Lucia Kelly: Which is the right choice.
Talia Franks: Okay, also – sidebar – can we talk about the fact that this is a 2012 without smartphones?
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. Isn’t it adorable? Awww.
Talia Franks: Adam with his super smart genius, doesn’t have a smartphone.
Lucia Kelly: Oh, and I guess we should talk about Adam.
Talia Franks: Oh yeah. (Lucia retches with disgust)
Lucia Kelly: Like, so – First of all, (Lucia laughs) bless Adam’s little heart, bless Adam’s little heart, mansplaining the stars to Rose. I mean like “I genuinely think there’s life out -,” It’s like, hun, you found her breaking in to this museum. You think she just walked off the street? You think she walked from Top Shop to your little Utah base? What do you think – (Lucia dissolves into giggles)
Talia Franks: Where do you think she came from hun? Where do you think she came from?
Lucia Kelly: Where are your A Levels at? That y- that one step forward is difficult for you.
Talia Franks: I know.
Lucia Kelly: But I was genuinely bothered by the romantic music that’s playing under that entire scene. I’m like, “No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.”
Talia Franks: Did they forget about Mickey? I hate that they’re always forgetting about Mickey. She has a boyfriend!
Lucia Kelly: She has a boyfriend!
Talia Franks: She has a boyfriend!
Lucia Kelly: She has a boyfriend who, let’s be honest, she dumped in her heart, but not for real. She let go of Mickey yonks ago, but never actually took that next, very essential step to actually dumping him.
Talia Franks: Yeah, and also when we get to Boom Town, she’s so upset over Trisha Delaney, like she didn’t pick up a boy in Utah, who, by the way, can we just note that, were Rose along her natural timeline, Adam is much younger than her.
Lucia Kelly: He sure is! He sure is! I mean, she’s learned from the best, hasn’t she? (Lucia and Talia laugh) What is age? What is age to a time traveler? Nothing.
Talia Franks: Nothing. Like, I guess – (Lucia sighs) I mean, not that much younger, like I’m guessing Adam is supposed to be a genius kid or whatever. Like, I don’t know how old the actor is, but I’m guessing Adam is supposed to be 20 or 21. Based on the vibe I was getting of like, “Character is wiz kid, went through all the schools, and got their dream job or whatever.” And Rose, in this timeline, if she had been along her normal timeline, would be 26. And I will never not feel weird about,
Lucia Kelly: Well, because the thi- She’s not 26 though. Like –
Talia Franks: I know she’s not 26.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. Like, they’re not a good match. I don’t want her to get with Adam cause – God, so many red flags! All over the place! Everywhere! Like, the whole little, “Oh, I almost started World War Three,” anecdote? Like, run away. Run away right now! Get out of there!
” Oh, it was funny.” Fuck off! Get away! I can see why Van Statten likes you, honestly. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: Yeah, no. I should also clarify that the reason I find it weird, is because I find it weird that Rose doesn’t find it weird, because –
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: – If I – Okay, if when I was 19, I time traveled to 2022, and found someone who was my age then, I would feel really weird thinking about the fact that in my current time, that person was a 13 year old. It would just weird me out. I think the reason it doesn’t weird Rose out is because she thinks she’s going to do this forever, but I mean, like I said, because I would never actually travel in the TARDIS, but if I was forced to travel in the TARDIS and I encountered someone who I knew along the actual timelines, is that much younger than me, I would be like, “When I’m forced to return to my actual time, you will be under age, and that will make me uncomfortable. We’re not going to do this.” (Lucia laughs)
Lucia Kelly: No. Yeah, that’s totally fair.
Talia Franks: But that’s me projecting onto Rose, and I should not project onto Rose because Rose makes bad decisions that I do not like. Start fucking running. (Lucia laughs) Can we talk about the fact that Rose and Adam are – (Talia takes a deep breath) I want to wrangle their little necks.
They’re not running. They’re just –
Lucia Kelly: They’re not.
Talia Franks: We watched it together this time, so you heard me shrieking and shouting and saw me clinging at my hat, trying to get them to run.
Lucia Kelly: But Talia, if they run, we don’t get the dramatic look back. And all of the framing, that’s so essential to keeping the tension in the story. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: If they’d run they would’ve been well past the bulkheads. They should have just run. All of that stopping was so unnecessary. It was so – Lords, give me strength. (Lucia giggles)
I – I – No words, for how upset I am at the fact that they did not fucking run. I just –
Lucia Kelly: Especially when the Doctor told them to. They were told explicitly. They were given one instruction.
Talia Franks: You had one job. One job.
Lucia Kelly: You had one job.
Talia Franks: Just one job.
Lucia Kelly: One job.
Talia Franks: One job. Run. The first thing the Doctor ever told Rose? Run. You know what she didn’t do? Run! Run, just, just run, run, run, run, just run, run, there, you see, you got – you just run! Just go. Just go! Just run. Run, run, run.
Lucia Kelly: Run, run, run.
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: So after the Ad-, after the Adam, after Adam, is like, “Oh, I’m so cool. I have access to watching the giant pepperpot. He manages to log into the system just when it’s about to get tortured. And I have – like, Adam, I have no doubt in my mind that you know exactly what’s going on in that cage.
Why would you show her?
What do you think is going to happen?
Talia Franks: Yeah, and also when he just takes her down there and flashes his security, like Van Statten’s not going to find out?
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: All that for a girl? Like –
Lucia Kelly: Billie Piper is very pretty. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: He’s risking his job of a lifetime for this girl he’s just met who appeared under suspicious circumstances.
Lucia Kelly: Yep. No brain cells. All brain cells were used to show off about his A Levels and then they all were gone. He was left with many A levels and no brain cells.
Talia Franks: I will never understand.
Lucia Kelly: But let’s cut back, to where the Doctor is also in a torture chamber! Because Van Statten is the Worst!
Talia Franks: He’s so the worst.
Lucia Kelly: He’s the worst.
Talia Franks: We’re gonna have to keep track of who’s the worst in this entire season, but so far, I think Van Statten wins, even over Sneed, and Sneed was pretty bad.
Lucia Kelly: Sneed was pretty bad. The – (Lucia grunts in frustration) when – So he’s torturing the Doctor and then he’s like bragging about all of the things he’s done. Being like ” Ooh. Look at -” Including! Including finding the cure for the common cold, which – the reason the common cold occurs every year is because it mutates.
It’s not the same cold every time, it’s a different bug, or it’s the same bug that has changed slightly.
Talia Franks: You can’t cure that.
Lucia Kelly: You can’t cure that. It doesn’t work like that. I don’t care if it’s alien. It doesn’t work like that. That’s why we need vaccines.
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: Oh, and then, on top of that, he’s like, “Oh, and by the way, I didn’t reveal this miraculous cure because instead I could just keep it secret and fuck over the general population of the entire world, for my own profit.” And it’s like “Ugh, you really are the worst.”
Talia Franks: Capitalism, baby.
Lucia Kelly: “Capitalism breeds innovation,”
But, Rose and the Dalek have this conversation. Now, do you think – Cause what we get – So these things happen back to back, and what the Doctor says textually is, “Do you know what a Dalek is? A Dalek is honest.” Right? And we see that multiple times throughout the episode. Is that, for everything a Dalek is, it is very straightforward and honest about how it works, how it thinks, and how it communicates with others. Do you think the scene between Rose and the Dalek – Is the Dalek lying to Rose in order to get Rose to touch him, or is the Dalek being honest, and they’re having a genuine moment of connection?
Talia Franks: I think the Dalek is being honest. (Lucia hmms in agreement) I think it is.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. Cause the other thing is it’s very interesting, that this is our introduction to the Daleks, because the very first Dalek we meet is not like any of the others we meet later.
The episode goes out of its way to draw parallels between this Dalek and the Doctor. This Dalek is also, presumably, a little bit insane, because it fell through time, and then fell like an asteroid and burned for however many days in the Russian crater, and then has been tortured pretty much ever since, (Talia hmms in agreement) unable to communicate, and unable to make contact with it’s own people.
And then it gets, which is another science thing that happens where I’m like, (Lucia makes a noise of frustration) the sci – like the themes of this episode, the philosophy of this episode, the character work in this episode, the production, the writing, everything is stellar. The science? There is none. (Talia and Lucia laugh) None of the science works, except for the fact that he uses electricity and water to kill a lot of people. That? Fine, whatever. (Talia laughs) Okay.
Talia Franks: So it’s one for science.
Lucia Kelly: It gets a one for science. Rose puts her hand on the shell, the metal exterior, so you have a biological handprint, that apparently – First of all, it glows. Okay. But apparently – (Talia starts singing)
Talia Franks: It’s the time vortex. (Lucia groans in frustration) The biomass of a time-traveller, doing magic and science, do the –
Lucia Kelly: It doesn’t make sense! (Lucia and Talia laugh)
So it’s the radiation that’s on her hand, that is pressed onto the, again, onto the exterior of the metal casing. (claps for emphasis) So – (Talia continues to sing)
Talia Franks: Rose is magic. Rose is magic. Just accept it. Rose is magic!
Lucia Kelly: No! No!
And then, when it gets out of the cage, it sticks its whole plunger just straight up into a monitor, (Talia and Lucia laugh) so not even the actual computer itself, the display unit, and somehow manages to draw energy out of this unit and heal itself? Question mark, question mark, question mark, question mark.
Talia Franks: By draining all of the power in the entire state of Utah on the west coast of the United States or whatever it says.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. It’s not magic. You’re a Sci-Fi show. It’s not magic. Magic doesn’t exist. (Talia continues to sing)
Talia Franks: It’s magic! Science beyond our understanding is magic!
Lucia Kelly: No!
Talia Franks: Magic!
Lucia Kelly: No!
Talia Franks: It’s magic!
Lucia Kelly: It makes me so upset. It doesn’t make sense. None of the science makes sense!
Talia Franks: See, this is where you, and some of the other people I know, get put off where I don’t, which is you’re like, “But the science doesn’t work,” and I’m like, “Yeah, but it’s just magic.” Y’all are like “This is a Sci-Fi show,” but I’m like, “Yeah, but it can just be magic, when it needs to be,” (Starts singing again) Magic! Magic!
Lucia Kelly: No.
Talia Franks: Ma—
Lucia Kelly: no.
Talia Franks: Magic! (Talia and Lucia giggle)
Lucia Kelly: There are – My notes for this episode are just periodically, just like, (singing) “The Worst!” over and over again, in big capital letters, and then huge question marks after science questions being like, (Lucia makes a frustated noise) and occasionally like “Christopher Eccleston deserves all the awards” and that’s a pretty comprehensive summary of all my notes.
I do love how they film, I mean, we’ve kind of already talked about – but how they make the Dalek a living creature, the way that they film it, the way they move it.
Talia Franks: It’s so cute! Oh my goodness, it was so adorable! I wanted to get it as a plushy. (Talia and Lucia start giggling)
Lucia Kelly: You do you, hun. You do you. Whatever floats your boat, but not for me.
Talia Franks: It was adorable. I mean, it was a bit gooey, but –
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, I can half see it, I can kind of see it. I do like the design of the Dalek. I think it’s – I don’t know. Do we? I’m not super familiar with Classic Who, but in Classic Who, did we ever see inside the shell, or no?
Talia Franks: I dont know. I haven’t watched that much of Classic Who.
Lucia Kelly: One of the things that I found really interesting, because later on in the show, the Doctor has a really hard line on guns. The Doctor does not like guns. The Doctor doesn’t use guns. And the use of guns in this episode was really – jarring? Like it felt strange to me to see so many guns in a Doctor Who episode.
Talia Franks: The thing is that I’ve noticed, there’s a lot of guns in these first few episodes in general.
Lucia Kelly: Hmm. Where were they in – (Talia: Like) – other places?
Talia Franks: Like, like there was a lot of – well, I think I mentioned in the last episode, when the pig fake alien mermaid –
Lucia Kelly: Yeah!
Talia Franks: – got shot. That was really jarring and really triggering for me. That felt very, very noticeable for me. That was something that I definitely took notice of in these past couple episodes. Those officers were heavily armed. Like, in “Aliens of London” and “World War Three” there were so many guns, so prominently in those two episodes. And, I mean, we’ll see when it gets to the next episode, but I think there are more than a few guns in “The Long Game” as well.
Lucia Kelly: Are there? I’m trying to remember.
Talia Franks: I mean, I think there are.
Lucia Kelly: I’m pretty sure there’s going to be guns again in “The Empty Child” and “The Doctor Dances”, ’cause that’s World War Two, you’ve got a lot of (Talia: Yeah) soldiers around.
Talia Franks: Yeah, no, but I remember specifically there’s a character in “The Long Game” who is an undercover spy or whatever, and she has a gun.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, that’s true too. Wow. Yeah. And another thing I noticed, as well, was how freely they talk about death, and suicide, and killing yourself, (Talia hmms in agreement) was another thing. Mainly because I know that there are lots of rules about that, particularly within family and children television, I mean, I’m going off specifically American television, cause I know there are lots of circumstances where certain shows wanted to do a show about death, and got pigeonholed into doing something a bit different, because they literally weren’t allowed to.
Talia Franks: Yeah. So there’s a lot of times, in the US, where there’s some thing that’s a Very Special Episode. And a lot of times there’s a message that’ll be aired along with it. That’s something like “Viewer discretion advised,”, “Parental discretion advised,” something like that.
If it’s a kid’s show that will say like, a warning about the graphic nature of the episode, and say what the disturbing thing is about the episode, to give parents time to decide whether or not they want their kids to watch it, and it’s usually whenever an episode would talk about things like suicide or death.
Also when they would talk about things like sex, or abuse, and also things like racism too. And so those things were more common in older things. I think that particular term peaked in the eighties.
And I think it usually had more to do with sitcoms and stuff, and Doctor Who isn’t really a sitcom. But it is a kids show, so, or it isn’t really a kid show, but like, it is –
Lucia Kelly: It isn’t really, but particularly early on, it was framed that way, particularly because Classic Who was a kid’s show, like absolutely a hundred percent.
So the fact that they dialed it up so much. (Talia: Yeah) took a lot of people by surprise.
Talia Franks: And that just brings me to another thing. It bothers me so much that Doctor Who is so heavily policed by old white men, and I know why it is. Doctor who was originally a kid’s show, in the 1960s, 70s, and 80s, and all the kids from then are now older, and because it’s Britain, and a lot of them were white, and a lot of them were men, that’s why a lot of old white men get upset about Doctor Who, and it bothers me particularly when they decide to say shit. Cause the thing is people think that Doctor who has become too PC, or too politically engaged, or it’s too concerned with being “woke” or whatever, and the thing is Doctor Who is not woke. First of all, to the extent that Doctor Who is politically engaging, Doctor Who has always been political, but to the extent that Doctor Who is diverse or critically engages with or caters to a progressive agenda with regard to race and gender, it really doesn’t. It’s not representative. It’s not.
Doctor Who caters to, in the most part, a older, white audience, or at least it has, and now that’s shifting, and I think a lot of people are upset about it.
Lucia Kelly: Yep. Yep.
Talia Franks: And it bothers me.
Lucia Kelly: Two things I’ll say about that, is that, primarily people who are still attached to TV shows that they watched in their childhood – to that extent, right? To the extent that they would try and argue with strangers on the internet, absolutely shows a lack of maturity within them, but the reason that I think the older generation of fans is not as representative of maybe what the actual viewership at the time was, is that a lot of other people grew up and moved on, and been like, “Yeah, no. I really liked watching Doctor Who as a child, when I was a child, but now I have other things to care about, instead of this show that I enjoyed to watch on Saturday nights.”
Talia Franks: Yeah. I’m not saying that the only people who watched Doctor Who –
Lucia Kelly: Yeah!
Talia Franks: – in the seventies were little white boys. For some reason, the people who seem to be the loudest about why articles like mine, and other people that I know have written, are bad, tend to be older white men. And I think that it’s because they watched Doctor Who as children, and haven’t grown up,
Lucia Kelly: No, a hundred percent.
Talia Franks: And I think that the other people who watch Doctor Who as children have grown up. Now what that says about white men? I don’t know.
Cause the other thing is, is that all media it’s political, but particularly Sci-Fi is political, because whenever you talk about Sci-Fi, you are talking about some form of imagined future. The only reason that older white guys don’t think that entertainment is political, is because for the vast majority of their lives, the shows they watched, and the media they consumed, did not question their worldview. It was catered to them specifically. And because it was catered to them, it was not catered to anyone else. And therefore it was political for everyone else and not to them. And suddenly they’re not the only ones being catered to. And it troubles them and it bothers them.
Yeah. I saw critique on Twitter, I forgot who did the original critique, I’ve seen a bunch of versions of it, that said something along the lines of “Dystopias are if white people had to go through what everyone else has to go through.” (Talia laughs)
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. A hundred percent. (Lucia laughs)
Dystopias are a fun little thought experiments for white people to consider what it would be like to be actually discriminated against. And that’s the extent of what they are.
Talia Franks: But back to the actual Doctor Who.
Lucia Kelly: So, oh my gosh. I know we’ve already talked about how insanely talented Christopher Eccleston is, but all my gosh, Christopher Eccleston is insanely talented.
Talia Franks: Oh my goodness. I never knew. Tell me more.
Lucia Kelly: So, first of all, you get that heart rendering scene in the cage, where he and the Dalek are going back and forth, and the Dalek keeps making the point about how similar he and the Doctor are to each other, and the Doctor’s like, “No! No! A hundred percent no! Never in a million years!” He can’t accept that, but the one thing he does accept, and this is so telling about the internal world of the Doctor is that – so the Dalek says, “I am alone in the universe.” The Doctor says, “Yep.” The Dalek says “So are you. We are the same.” The Doctor rails against this. He says, “No, we’re not the same.” And then says, “No, wait, maybe you are. You’re right. Yeah. Okay. You’ve got a point, cause I know what to do. I know what should happen. I know what you deserve. Exterminate.” And then he tries to kill the Dalek.
He is explicitly talking about both of them in that circumstance. He is acknowledging that they are the same, and what he wants, and what he wants to do to the Dalek, is the same, and it’s to kill, and to kill himself specifically, and to kill the Dalek specifically. It’s really dark.
Talia Franks: That’s so dark and it really hurts. Why you gotta do me like that? (Talia laughs)
Lucia Kelly: It’s my job. (Lucia laughs) And then again, when the Dalek makes contact with the Doctor, and Van Statten, and Goddard, in the office, again, the Dalek is making the case that they’re the same kind of people, and again, the Doctor says, “Kill yourself,” like straight out.
So, so many of the conversations that the Doctor has with the Dalek, he is simultaneously talking about himself, so, just go with me on this thought experiment. “The Time Lords have failed. Why don’t you finish the job and make the Time Lords extinct? Rid the universe of your filth. Why don’t you just die?”
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. Cause we’re going to find out – It’s early days yet. We’re going to find out the Time Lords were not pleasant people. They were not good people.
Talia Franks: Timeless Children. May I confront you with that.
Lucia Kelly: To which – So of course, the Doctor’s actually saying Daleks, the Daleks have failed, whatever, blah blah blah, but the Dalek response, “You would make a good Dalek.”
And we cut to black, (snaps for emphasis) and we cut to the Doctor’s face, and the spittle on his face, the look of shock, Eccleston conveys so much, like he understands exactly what’s been said, he accepts what’s been said, and he has no desire to fight it, so the Doctor’s deep in it (Lucia laughs) and they decide to block off the bulkheads. And it’s like, run, run, run, run, run, run, run. This is where they should have been running.
Talia Franks: Running the whole fucking time. The whole fucking time.
Lucia Kelly: The officer that was sort of in charge of taking care of Rose and Adam dies in the line of fire. That felt a bit fridgey to me. I know it’s not fridgey specifically, but it felt very much like, “Okay, but you’ve seen that this doesn’t work.” Like, you know, that shooting it with bullets doesn’t work. So what you’re doing is actually pointless and again, it’s a woman sacrificing herself for literally no reason. (Lucia sighs) I’m not sure if we even get her name. And it bothers me.
Talia Franks: Bothers you. Bothers me. Bothers all of us.
Lucia Kelly: And then they get to the bulkhead, and Billie Piper’s little, little voice when like the bulkheads close and she and the Doctor are on the phone to each other.
She’s like, “Sorry, I was a bit slow.” And my heart breaks. It breaks into tiny little pieces.
Talia Franks: When the Doctor says “You just wanted to drag the stars down and stick them underground, underneath tons of sand and dirt, and label them. You’re just about as far from the stars as you can get, and you took her down with you. She was just 19 years old.” And I was just like, (Talia gasps in grief and emotion)
Lucia Kelly: Especially back to back with an episode where we met with Jackie, and Jackie tried to get a promise out of the Doctor to keep Rose safe, and the Doctor would not give her that, because the Doctor knew, right? The Doctor knew that danger was always a possibility. The companions aren’t safe. That walking with him is dangerous.
Talia Franks: Well, see, that’s that’s okay. But that is why I so love the Thirteenth Doctor. Sorry, me on the Whittaker train, all the way. (Talia and Lucia laugh)
Okay, hold up. So I brought up I think it was last episode, how it’s really different from how the other Doctors do things, because, she’s more open to domesticity.
But there’s this part, for the episode of “Arachnids in the UK”, where the Doctor is like giving them a proper goodbye, and they’re asking her, trying to convince her, to take them with her.
And then she’s like, “I can’t guarantee that you’re going to be safe,” and then Yaz is like, “We know,” and the Doctor’s like, “Do you really? Because when I pull that lever, I’m never quite sure what’s going to happen.” And Ryan’s like, “That’s okay.” And the Doctor’s like, “You’re not going to come back the same people that left here.” and Graham’s like, “But that’s all right. I think that’s good.” And the Doctor’s like, “Be sure. All of you, be sure.” And the Doctor is giving them all the chances to leave, and they all definitely super affirm that they want to be there.
Lucia Kelly: Everything except being like, “Hey, this is what’s happened to some of my past companions. Do you really want to come?”
Talia Franks: Yeah. I know, but still, I feel like she does such a much better job than any other Doctor before her.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: And also, I would say that this is the fourth episode, it’s not like they haven’t seen shit. Like, in the very first episode, they know that being with the Doctor got Ryan’s grandmother killed. It got Grace killed. In the second episode, they got stranded on a death planet. In the third episode, they met Rosa Parks, and this episode was with a bunch of giant spiders, and a bunch of people got dead there. I’m just saying, like, a bunch of bad shit has happened. This is at the end of the fourth episode, and it’s implied at the beginning of the third episode, that they also had a bunch of side adventures.
Like, they had a test drive, and this is her being like, “Are you really sure you want to stay with me? You know how unreliable this is? You know how dangerous this is. Do you really want in?” As opposed to the Twelfth Doctor who, when Bill came in, he was like, “In here, you’ll always be safe,” and I’m like, “The fuck, man? What you’d just say, bitch? What did you just say to my Bill? That you let get turned into a cyberman? Fuck you.”
Lucia Kelly: So, we get this awful moment, where we think for a hot second that the Dalek has killed Rose. Turns out not true! Cause – (Lucia takes a deep breath) because somehow the radiation – so the DNA from Rose, which I will reiterate, just again, for clarity, was on the exterior of the metal casing, somehow has infected the Dalek within, to the point that it is mutating.
And now it has feelings. (Talia starts singing again)
Talia Franks: It’s magic! Magic! Ma-
Lucia Kelly: Nope.
Talia Franks: Magic! Magic.
Lucia Kelly: Magic has its place. It’s place is not in Doctor Who.
Talia Franks: You can’t see me, but I’m doing a little dance.
Lucia Kelly: I’m specifically blocking my eyes from you. (Talia continues to sing)
Talia Franks: Get down tonight! Get down tonight!
Lucia Kelly: So anyway, the Dalek says something here, that I’m like, okay, like, is this the first indication of romance between the Doctor and Rose. Cause we’ve been talking about it. We’ve been talking about it, right? Everyone always asks is the Doctor Rose’s boyfriend. Is this romantic? Is this sexual?
And then the Dalek says – he refers to Rose as the woman that the Doctor “loves.” Now is – and I don’t trust television to talk about love between a man and a woman and for it not to be meant to be interpreted as romantic. (Talia laughs) Like, never, never, never, is the term “the woman you love” used within a context of friendship love within television. It should be. It a hundred percent should, but it’s not, right? And if it isn’t, you explicitly tell the audience that it’s not.
Talia Franks: It felt weird to me, because her youth is so emphasized in this episode, that it even felt –
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: – weird having her being called a woman.
Lucia Kelly: A little bit. I’m not going to say she feels like a child, but she feels like a teenager. She really does.
Talia Franks: She doesn’t feel like a child, but at the same time, I feel like there’s a more adult connotation to calling someone, “the woman that you love,” that –
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: – feels weird to apply to a teenager when you’re talking to a 900 year old. (Lucia mhmms in agreement) And that just felt so – (Talia and then Lucia both vocalise their disgust and creepedoutedness )
Lucia Kelly: So yeah, the Dalek almost, but doesn’t, kill Van Statten. We kind of wish they did.
Talia Franks: I really wish they did.
Lucia Kelly: But we can’t have Rose condone murder that would be wrong.
Talia Franks: And we can’t deprive Goddard of her shining coup moment.
Lucia Kelly: And eventually, the Dalek – Okay, so, the Dalek says, “I want freedom.” And I get that Rose has not been with the Doctor the whole time. I get that she doesn’t have all of the context necessary to realise that that is a very, very, very, very, very bad idea.
But that’s a very, very, very, very, very bad idea.
You’re like, “I don’t want to kill. I just want freedom.” “To kill?” “To kill,” is the end of that sentence, mayhaps? How do you hear that and think, “Yep. Sounds right to me!”
Talia Franks: I think – It feels like kind of a cop-out to blame it on Rose’s youth and naivety, but… I feel like, you know, she really hasn’t been with the Doctor the whole time. She doesn’t have the full context of the Daleks. She is really empathetic and trusting.
Lucia Kelly: She’s also seen this thing kill multiple people though, like multiple people. 200 personnel dead. The Dalek did all of that.
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: Within 20 minutes.
Talia Franks: I do note that, I’m not saying that Rose is right. I’m saying that I could see how she might rationalize it as the Dalek doing that, lashing out after being kept, imprisoned, and tortured.
Lucia Kelly: So you want to release the crazy beserk – ?
Talia Franks: I don’t want to release it. I don’t want to release the crazy Dalek. But I’m saying, that if I were Rose, I still wouldn’t make the same decisions, because I feel like I’ve better decision making skills than Rose, but I’m saying if I were Rose and I had the same decision-making skills, and the same amount of context, I would probably think, “Oh. Well, this Dalek has been kept in prison. It’s been tortured. These people who were torturing it, are now trying to reimprisoned it, are shooting at it -” And I would say that it didn’t kill her. It didn’t kill Van Statten. She genuinely believes that it’s changing.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, I mean, once again, Rose is saved by the fact that she turned out to be right. That didn’t make the decision a good one at the time.
Talia Franks: I didn’t say it was a good decision.
Lucia Kelly: I’m not accusing you of saying that. I’m just like, I’m so mad, I just – (Lucia makes sounds of frustration) but of course, without this moment, we don’t get the next scene, which – I’m going to say this whole scene might be my favorite moment. This might be it. (Talia mhmms in agreement) It’s so good. It’s so powerful.
Talia Franks: It’s brilliant.
Lucia Kelly: The lighting, the one light coming down from the hole in the sky, the way that the Dalek puppet moves, so you can sort of see it quivering.
Talia Franks: I literally started to cry. This genocidal squid in a pepperpot made me cry.
Lucia Kelly: And the conversation between Rose and the Doctor is so moving. This is the first time we see the true extent to just, just how fucked up the Doctor is. (Talia mhmms in agreement) And the fact that Rose meets that, like meets the Doctor where he is, and still manages to ensure compassion.
And she like, ugh – My God, when they’re all talking to each other, and the Doctor says “Rose did more than regenerate you. You’ve obsorbed her DNA (through a metal exterior… whatever) You’ve obsorbed her DNA. You’re mutating into something new,” and Rose says, “Is that better?” The level of pity, the level of compassion, in Eccleston’s delivery of “Not for a Dalek,” ?
Oh my God.
Talia Franks: Yeah. When he’s like, “I couldn’t – I wasn’t – Oh Rose, they’re all dead.” I can’t even replicate it. Because all of it is just so brilliant, because –
Lucia Kelly: And so painful!
Talia Franks: And so painful! (Talia vocalises said pain) because he’s not even able to get out the words,
and – cause she doesn’t even know who he’s talking about.
Lucia Kelly: No. Well, she knows that Gallifrey is gone. She knows that he’s the last Time Lord. She doesn’t know that he’s the one who did it. And that’s also what gets revealed in this episode is that the Doctor is the one that like, (Lucia sighs) When they’re at the end, when they’re in the museum just as it’s about to get filled with concrete, and the way the Doctor says, completely resigned, “I win”. And there’s absolutely no emotion attached to that. It’s such a beautiful exploration, this whole episode, of just – the price of war?
Talia Franks: Mmhmm.
Lucia Kelly: And what it does to people? Especially, especially a war like this, which, we very clearly are made to understand, that this was a war about racial cleansing. This was about the Daleks trying to exterminate literally everyone else. (Talia mmhmms in agreement)
And talk about a war that – like it’s not even – the war simultaneously meant nothing and everything, right? That it was for this made up construct – like you said before, racism, it’s a social construct with real world consequences. And – (Lucia sighs)
Talia Franks: Yeah, and the other thing that strikes me about that scene, because it’s like, fighting between their two species, the Time Lords and the Daleks, and they’ve both been eradicated, and their home planets have been eradicated, like Gallifrey is completely gone.
And that scene opens with the Doctor, caressing the TARDIS, and saying “A little piece of home. Better than nothing.”
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: And so, that small moment is really, really powerful, because it’s just the Doctor really able to articulate that Gallifrey is gone. And this is all he has left of his entire home, is this one police box, and it’s his magnificent time ship. It’s the Doctor and the TARDIS. It’s the link that they have to each other. And that’s why the TARDIS is more emblematic of Doctor Who than the Doctor himself is, because the Doctor’s always changing, (Lucia hmms in agreement) and the TARDIS does to, subtly, from Doctor to Doctor, the TARDIS gets a redesign and upgrade.
But I think, you know, it’s a – yeah,
So we established our favorite moment. What is our least favorite moment of the episode?
Lucia Kelly: Well, I think the least favorite moment is when the Doctor and Rose bring Adam with them, for no bloody reason.
Talia Franks: I would have to agree.
Lucia Kelly: Why? Why? Why? There was no reason. He could have stayed there.
Talia Franks: There was no reason.
Lucia Kelly: Either, either at Heathrow or under concrete, it doesn’t matter! (Talia starts singing)
Talia Franks: It does not matter! Either way, do not bring Adam.
Lucia Kelly: Do not bring Adam with you! (Lucia sighs) No. Yeah.
As for the Hero and the Adam, surprisingly, Adam is not the Adam of his first episode.
Talia Franks: He’s not.
Lucia Kelly: He’s not the worst. He’s the close contender.
Talia Franks: He’s the close contender, but, no –
Lucia Kelly: But, no.
Talia Franks: – That award goes to Henry Van Statten.
Lucia Kelly: Who is now a homeless junkie somewhere in the town starting with S. Thank goodness.
Talia Franks: Yeah –
Lucia Kelly: No longer able to hurt anyone.
Talia Franks: And I think the Hero is – I would say the Hero was Rose.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. We have had the same Hero and the same Adam for pretty much every episode. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: I haven’t been keeping track. Was there an episode where we had different one?
Lucia Kelly: Yes, it was the very first episode. The very first episode we picked different Heroes and Adams, but I think literally every other episode, we pick the same ones.
Talia Franks: Well, perhaps we will pick different ones at some point.
Lucia Kelly: In the future, maybe.
Now for grading Five out of five for everything? Maybe? Except science.
Talia Franks: Science gets a one.
Lucia Kelly: Science gets a one, but –
Talia Franks: Everything else –
Lucia Kelly: literally, everything else is a five. Because the production: insane, the writing: insane, the acting: insane, and the rewatchability? You’ve just said, you’re about to watch it again right now!
Talia Franks: I am about to watch it again, well, not right now. In the morning, when my roommate wakes up.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. But like, yeah. Pretty insanely good. Which I can only assume… 21 divided by 25. 84. It gets a B, just because the science does not make – like, none of the science makes sense. (Lucia sighs) It’s an 84%. So it gets a B, which – I’m not mad at, because honest to goodness, honest to goodness, it’s a Sci-Fi show. You need to have your science make sense. Please. Just even a little bit. Even a little bit. Make it make sense.
It’s a high B, though. It’s an 84.
Talia Franks: This has been the Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Podcast.
Lucia Kelly: We hope you enjoyed this adventure with us through space and time.
Talia Franks: If you’d like to find us elsewhere on the internet, we are on Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram as @WibblyPod.
Lucia Kelly: You can also find out more information about us and our content on wibblywobblytimeywimey.net, and full transcripts for episodes at wibblywobblytimeywimey.net/transcripts.
Talia Franks: If you’d like to get in touch, you can send us an email at firstname.lastname@example.org.
Lucia Kelly: That’s all for now. Catch you in the time vortex!