Reality TV is more dangerous than ever, and the Daleks are back—it’s time for the Series One finale with BAD WOLF and THE PARTING OF THE WAYS! Talia is crying about everything, and it’s Lucia’s turn to be frustrated by Rose. We argue over a certain character’s death, discuss the Doctor’s struggles with genocide, and grapple with saying goodbye.
Talia Franks: Hello and welcome to The Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Podcast!
Lucia Kelly: I’m Lucia Kelly, expert at applied analysis, and dead sweet.
Talia Franks: And I’m Talia Franks, media critic, fanfic enthusiast, and I create myself.
Lucia Kelly: And we’re here today to talk about “Bad Wolf” and “The Parting of the Ways”, the 12th and 13th episode of Series One of Doctor Who, the Season One finale! Two parter. (Talia and Lucia laugh)
Talia Franks: “Bad Wolf” and “The Parting of the Ways” aired on the 11th and 18th of June 2005, respectively, both episodes were written by Russell T Davies and directed by Joe Aherne.
Lucia Kelly: Reminder that time isn’t a straight line. It can twist into any shape, and as such this as a fully spoiled podcast. We might bring in things from later in the show, the comics, the books, or even fan theories, and articles.
Talia Franks: With that out of the way, we have no weapons, no defense and no plan, so let’s get in the TARDIS! (Transition wobbles)
Lucia Kelly: Oh my gosh.
Talia Franks: I’m not emotionally prepared for this.
Lucia Kelly: Well, it’s good that you’re not emotionally prepared because the beginning of “Bad Wolf” is just fun. It’s just a good time. Before we realize what’s actually happening. (Lucia and Talia laugh) This premise of the Doctor, Rose, and Jack all being thrown into very 2005 reality TV shows is so good.
Talia Franks: It is pretty hilarious.
Lucia Kelly: I love it so much.
Talia Franks: Yeah. I got to say though, that Jack’s really hits different.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. I… did you watch What Not to Wear?
Talia Franks: Yes.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. I used to watch it pretty religiously, which is hysterical because I don’t pay attention to fashion at all and never have, (Talia: Me neither) I just found it kind of interesting.
Talia Franks: Well no, I mean that the fact that he ends up naked.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if that was written in as almost an inside joke.
Talia Franks: Yeah. And then I noticed, in “Boom Town”, he also makes a joke about being naked.
Lucia Kelly: He does. Yeah.
Talia Franks: It’s gross.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. What’s also gross is why did the Trinny and Susanna robots have boobs and why do they look like that?
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: It makes me so uncomfortable. And why does Jack touch them? Can we talk about the autonomy of the robots and droids, please?
Talia Franks: Yeah, and can we talk about the fact that he then says “The pleasure was all mine and that’s the only thing that matters”?
Lucia Kelly: Thing that matters?
Talia and Lucia Together: No no no no no no no no no no no.
Talia Franks: I don’t like it.
Lucia Kelly: I don’t like it either.
Lucia Kelly: Why can’t we have nice things? Why can’t we just enjoy the 2005 nostalgia trip? (Talia: Yeah.) That’s what I want to do.
Talia Franks: Why did the Black woman have to die?
Lucia Kelly: Why did the Black woman have to die?
Talia Franks: Why does a Black guy have to be an asshole?
Talia Franks: Why did the South Asian woman have to be “Just doing her job”?
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: And why did everyone else have to be white?
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. And I don’t know. I think we’re meant to find, we’re meant to find, the little sort of brewing romance between the two Controllers… cute, and… the one time I’m on board with it, is when he says “I only took the job because of you,” and she snaps right back like, “What? Do you think just because of that I’m meant to say ‘after all this has done, if we’re both still alive, we can go out for a drink.'” And he comes back with “Yeah.”
Lucia Kelly: And she goes like, “Well, tough.” And I’m like, “Yeah!” And then she winks afterwards. And I’m like, “Goddammit.” Cause like, I don’t know… Especially because it’s a white man pursuing a woman of color, within the workplace –
Talia Franks: Yep.
Lucia Kelly: It just feels icky. And especially when she has expressed disinterest, and not in that, like flirty “Oh, you,” or… not in the way that actually encourages – like, I’m not about to get into all that politics about “When a woman says no, she means yes,” and all that kind of garbage, but there is definitely a way to do consensual, playful, “Will they? Won’t they?” flirting. (Talia mhmms in agreement) That’s not what she was doing. She was saying no.
Lucia Kelly: And then at the end, it’s like, oh, she was actually saying yes this whole time. And that’s such a – Don’t do that. Don’t justify that kind of behavior. I don’t like it.
Talia Franks: Yeah. Retroactively, I think it’s cute, because I know at the end, she liked him the whole time, but looking at it, through lens of just what is actually portrayed, not knowing the end game of she liked him the whole time.
Talia Franks: It is very icky.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: So, yeah, we’ve got all of these different reality TV shows. The Doctor’s in Big Brother, which I find hysterical, Rose is on The Weakest Link, and Jack’s on What Not to Wear. The like, peppy joy with which had that voiceover – when you know what actually happens to the contestants, or what is said to happen to the contestants – and then it’s like, “And then we’re gonna get you!”
Lucia Kelly: And it’s like— you mean you’re gonna kill them??
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: It’s like what?
Talia Franks: It’s just wild.
Lucia Kelly: It’s so much. It’s so much. And especially like, they obviously, they focus on the Doctor a bit, because of the three shows, Big Brother is the one that, sort of, works the best narratively for the twist. Like, Big Brother is overdramatic. It is overplayed. There is this, sort of, life and death stakes with no real danger.
Lucia Kelly: And then to find out, no, it is real, (Talia mhmms in agreement) is a really good twist.
Talia Franks: Yeah, and also, it’s the one where they all get invested in each other. (Lucia mhmms in agreement)
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. So that whole, the whole scene with the first eviction, where the three contestants are so emotional, and the Doctor is like, “Come on,” like, (Talia mhmms in agreement) it super works.
Talia Franks: It definitely works. (Lucia: Um…) And the Doctor just looks devastated when he realizes, because Christopher Eccleston.
Lucia Kelly: Oh, Christopher Eccleston! Now that we’ve come to the end. I’m so, so sad –
Talia Franks: I am so sad.
Lucia Kelly: That there’s not more Nine! He brings so much to the table. Particularly, all of that emotional stuff, the way that he plays the Doctor as closed off, but incredibly close to the surface is such skilled work and so beautiful.
Talia Franks: Yeah. The way that he brushes off Lynda, except when she shows that vulnerability and then he’s so, so nice.
Lucia Kelly: I know!
Talia Franks: And so, so gentle with her.
Lucia Kelly: Ah poor Lynda. Lynda with a Y. Ah. You were never long for this world. You were never gonna last. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: Yeah. She was never going to last. She was too nice.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. That whole moment where he’s like, “Oh, I’m a traveler.” It’s like, “Oh, I could come with you.” ‘Cause, this whole season, we’ve seen these one episode characters that come in for the episode and they have an adventure with the Doctor and then the Doctor swans off.
Lucia Kelly: And a few times, we’ve both said, like, “Oh, they would have made a great companion to stick around for a couple of episodes. The ones that are sticking out to me are both Dickens and Nancy, would have been super fun to just have them stick around. Lynda is not one of those. They do a great job of showing how Lynda would not be good companion material, while still being like, she’s a good person and she’s sweet, but she doesn’t make the cut.
Talia Franks: I feel like I didn’t want Lynda to be a companion, but I wanted her to have a nice little vacation. I wanted her to see the stars. I wanted her to have a nice Doctor Who experience.
Lucia Kelly: You know those are few and far between!
Talia Franks: That doesn’t mean I don’t want it for her.
Lucia Kelly: When has – When has any Companion walked away from the Doctor – if they do – with less trauma than when they started off. Is there one?
Talia Franks: I would argue that some of the book companions.
Lucia Kelly: Right.
Talia Franks: Well, actually, no, I would argue what’s her name? Christina D’Souza from “Planet of the Dead” (Lucia: Alright. Yeah.) ends up better off at the end of the episode. She has a flying bus.
Lucia Kelly: She does have a flying bus. There’s a character I would love to see it again that we never ever ever will.
Lucia Kelly: Do you know what? Do you know what? She and Jenny found each other in the stars and they’re off having their own adventures.
Talia Franks: Yeah, absolutely. A hundred percent.
Lucia Kelly: If you’re not going to write them into canon, we will!
Lucia Kelly: Ah. So everyone finds out, that “Oh. Wait. Hang on a moment. This is real stakes.” And so it’s a rush to make sure that everyone gets back together again. We find out that they were pulled out of the TARDIS, which is pretty powerful tech.
Talia Franks: The Controller is wildly powerful. Wildly.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. The Controller is a very interesting character, visually just arresting, both the way the lighting where she’s plugged in, and then, I love the switch that happens in terms of how we perceive her and how she’s framed and how she’s viewed, when she gets transported to the Dalek ship. (Talia mhmms in agreement)
Lucia Kelly: And we see just how alien she looks (Talia mhmms in agreement) in the original sense of that term, like uncanny, almost. She just looks outside of the world.
Talia Franks: Yeah. It reminds me of what the white guy Controller was saying that he thinks she hasn’t been human for years.
Lucia Kelly: Hmm. But for goodness sake, my darling, my doll, just give a key word. When the Doctor’s like, “Just tell me their name, tell me their name, tell me something to identify them by.” And she’s “I can’t, it’s locked away.” Do you know what you could say? You could say they exterminate. You could say literally any key word that’s, “Hey, it’s about the Daleks.” You can say the blue eye, you could do anything, anything at all.
Lucia Kelly: But then of course we wouldn’t get the awesome reveal. I love the way that they reveal that the Daleks are behind this. So first we get the visual of looking through the eye stalk at Rose, and then the mirrored reflection of the Daleks behind the Controller in her final moments. Just (Lucia kisses the air) perfect. Beautiful. I love it.
Talia Franks: Okay. We need to take a second to recognize that I looked at the transcript, (Lucia mhmms in agreement) cause we were talking last episode, how we didn’t know, between the two of us, what the names of the two floor Controllers were. And I said, “Oh, well, they introduced themselves at one point.” But I realized only the male Controller introduces himself. Because I looked up the transcript and in the transcript he’s listed as being “Paval”, but the other Controller is just listed as being “Woman”–
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: –throughout the entire transcript. So, she never gets a name.
Lucia Kelly: Ah, I hate this.
Talia Franks: Why does the white guy get a name?
Lucia Kelly: Why does the white guy get a name?
Lucia Kelly: So Rose quote, unquote, “dies.” And this is where the episode flips, right? Like we’ve had the threat of death, and of course, we’ve got Roderick, who’s the worst.
Talia Franks: The absolute worst. We discussed how they like making Black people and other POC, the absolute worst.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. So all these extras are dying.
Lucia Kelly: They finally make their way into Rose’s Weakest Link room, and just as she’s running towards them, she gets blasted by the Anne-droid’ s ray, and apparently disintegrates. The crew get arrested.
Talia Franks: I’m wondering, if she is transmatting, where’s the powder coming from?
Lucia Kelly: I thought that it was the dust that settles on the body.
Lucia Kelly: If you’re transmitted, you’re taking just the person and their clothes, so anything else that’s sort of around the body, but even then, it might even be that in order to perpetuate the fantasy that this is a disintegration ray, the Daleks have somehow built into it that a deposit is left.
Talia Franks: Weird, but okay.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. It’s one of those “And the science works how?” Question marks.
Talia Franks: I think this episode is going to get a low science grade.
Lucia Kelly: Oh, it’s going to get such a low science grade, because we haven’t even gotten to the finale yet, but we will get there when we get there.
Lucia Kelly: There’s this whole montage where everything’s silent. The dialogue fades out. We focus on the Doctor’s face, Christopher Eccleston kills us all slowly with his looks of grief, and devastation, and guilt.
Talia Franks: Can we really just give the acting a six, honestly?
Lucia Kelly: Jack and the Doctor demonstrate the very important life lesson of “Don’t talk to cops” and then without any communication at all, they break out.
Talia Franks: It’s because they vibe so well with each other. Cause they are in love.
Lucia Kelly: The throuple is missing their third piece!
Talia Franks: Yeah. But they know how to do this because they’ve clearly done this before.
Lucia Kelly: Also more proof that Jack, and the Doctor, and just how close that group is, Jack has a key. So, we know how much a big deal it was when Rose got the key.
Talia Franks: Oh, it’s very big deal. It’s a very big deal whenever a Companion gets a key.
Lucia Kelly: I’m upset we didn’t get to see that, get to see Jack being given the key, cause I think especially in this episode and the next, we see just how much Jack has grown, as a result of being with the Doctor and being with Rose.
Lucia Kelly: What I did find, it’s not funny, but it kind of is, Rose’s jacket being left on the sort of coral banister? That is a visual cue that we are going to see again. So clearly Rose doesn’t put her clothes away.
Talia Franks: Yeah, no, I noted that too, but I thought it was so interesting, the differences in how that visual cue is treated.
Lucia Kelly: Hmm. Say more.
Talia Franks: Well, I think it happens more than once, but the two that I was thinking of are when Jack does it here and Donna’s reaction when she sees it. Cause she has a very different reaction to seeing another woman’s clothing strewn about the TARDIS.
Lucia Kelly: Well, (Lucia laughs) well, yeah, cause in “The Runaway Bride”, right? We get both the Doctor and Donna have time to respond. So, we have the Doctor’s response first, which is devastating. And then, because he literally can’t deal with the grief, he puts it back exactly where it was, so that it is then set up for the comedic take.
Talia Franks: Yeah, no, I definitely saw the connection between the Doctor’s reaction and Jack’s reaction, because again, throuple. They’re both in love with her. (Lucia laughs) But because the Doctor and Jack’s reaction in that visual repetition feels obvious to me, I was thinking in particular of how Donna’s take is so different. But I’m also thinking of how the Doctor and Jack are so willing to sacrifice their lives because they know Rose is safe and I’m just like, the throuple energy. (Talia sighs) The throuple energy is there, but also the toxic masculinity aspect of it too.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. The damseling of Rose is starting to really bug me. (Talia mhmms in agreement) It’s been an issue pretty much from the beginning, but particularly in these last three episodes, “Boom Town”, “Bad Wolf”, and “The Parting of the Ways”. What bothers me most about Rose, is that she’s got a really solid foundation as a great companion. And even a solid foundation as a morally complex and interesting companion. Like, I feel like there are two different versions of Rose, depending on how you feel about her, and she’s either the best and so sweet, so compassionate, so everything, or she’s this horrible bitch who left Mickey on the line and never takes personal responsibility for her own actions. That’s the same person, but she’s not given the time to be complex, (Talia mhmms in agreement) and instead what’s happening is that we’re just consistently minimizing her characterization in order to damsel her, so the Doctor and any other male companions can come and rescue her. (Talia mhmms in agreement) Which is why I find the inclusion of Lynda so interesting, because the look Rose gives her when they’re in the control room together, and the Doctor says, “This is your role. Good luck.”
Lucia Kelly: And there’s that little bit of back and forth between Lynda and the Doctor, Rose gives Lynda a look of such venom, which is so unwarranted and very much feels like, “Uh, excuse me, the role of damsel has already been fulfilled. Back off,” like –
Talia Franks: Really?
Lucia Kelly: Oh yeah.
Talia Franks: It didn’t seem like venom to me it seemed more like pity.
Lucia Kelly: Interesting.
Talia Franks: It was really sort of pitying/ disgust/ hate to be her sort of look.
Lucia Kelly: Interesting.
Talia Franks: Almost like she was looking down on her.
Lucia Kelly: Oh yeah. Definitely. I definitely think that Rose looks down and pities Lynda.
Talia Franks: I think she was looking at her kind of like, “Oh, he’s not interested.” I think she’s secure enough in how much the Doctor’s interested in her, that she knows – or thinks she knows – that the Doctor’s interest in Lynda is superficial. I don’t think the Doctor’s interest in Lynda is actually superficial, but I think she thinks that,
Lucia Kelly: Okay, let’s have this conversation, the Doctor and attraction.
Lucia Kelly: So throughout this whole series, throughout all of Season One, we’ve kind of been teasing at Rose and the Doctor. We haven’t really been able to go full fledged romance, because Mickey exists and they’ve made that choice. But also because –
Lucia Kelly: Well, first of all, it’s Season One of the revival, and I can assure you that was no canoodling in Old Who. That wasn’t the dynamic. And (Lucia sighs uncomfortably) I kind of hate that it’s become an aspect in New Who. It introduces this really complicated and unexamined power dynamic between the Doctor and the companions, that is not a part of being in a healthy relationship, and affects all of the relationships that the new Doctor has with the new companions. And I think that’s present with Rose. I think it’s present with Lynda. It’s definitely present with Martha. (Talia mhmms in agreement) And even after we have the break with Donna, where we explicitly say, “No, they’re best friends, and this is all it is,” we’ll get into it, but I found his relationship with Amy very odd, and Clara’s a whole other thing.
Talia Franks: I mean, I think that they do a really good job with Clara and Twelve.
Lucia Kelly: Mm, but Clara and Eleven are a problem.
Talia Franks: Clara and Eleven are a problem, but Clara and Eleven I prefer to pretend don’t exist. (Lucia let’s out a small burst of laughter)
Lucia Kelly: And given where we’re already on this topic, I want to talk about this kiss.
Lucia Kelly: The Tenth Doctor starts in the wake of this highly emotional, highly charged, and not discussed, relationship with Rose. Rose and the Doctor never talk about who they are to each other. They’ll dance around it, and they’ll affirm their affection for each other, but they won’t clarify or define their terms or their relationship, (Talia mhmms in agreement) in a way that is not beneficial to either of them, and I think a big part of that is that like –
Lucia Kelly: I’m of the opinion that the regeneration is often, like the personality of the regeneration is often built from the circumstances of the death of the last Doctor.
Talia Franks: Absolutely. I feel like the new Doctor is fundamentally shaped by how the old Doctor died.
Lucia Kelly: Hmm. So you get the Nine – Ten transition and Ten is such an emotional Doctor. Where Nine is often quite shielded, and doesn’t show emotion very freely, except when he does. He’ll crack often, he’s close to the surface, but he’s also very guarded. (Talia mhmms in agreement) Ten is just all surface, all the time, and he’s also, I think, textually in love with Rose.
Talia Franks: Oh yeah.
Lucia Kelly: Like I think that’s very textual.
Talia Franks: Absolutely.
Lucia Kelly: And that’s and that kind of passionate, involved, in love with the world, in love with Rose, very heightened existence, I think is 100% born from how heightened Nine’s death is. There’s a direct transition there. (Talia mhmms in agreement)
Talia Franks: Can we also talk about how Rose creates herself as the Bad Wolf? And I’m specifically also thinking about, how that connects to the 50th and The Moment. (Lucia hmmms in contemplation)
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: So what I’m wondering is how much is it actually Rose creating herself and how much is it potentially The Moment bleeding through?
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: I’m wondering, if we think about how they wrote The Moment to interfere with the Bad Wolf. Because The Moment definitely builds on the Bad Wolf mythology.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. So, let’s, let’s take it from the top. First of all, the Doctor sends Rose home, in possibly the most – like this is the beginning of the heartbreak. (Talia mhmms in agreement)
Lucia Kelly: The way that, and again, all the props to Christopher Eccleston, the way that upon second viewing, like maybe in first viewing, you buy it. But upon second viewing, the fact that the Doctor is acting, is so apparent. The high energy, the way that he builds Rose up, the way that he uses their routines, and the way that they work together, in order to ensure that she stays in the TARDIS, and the way he just stops, as soon as he’s outside, it’s just devasting.
Talia Franks: And his face falls, and then he turns, and then he looks at the TARDIS, and then it’s just –
Talia Franks: My heart cannot take this! I just – And he’s gone! And Christopher Eccleston is gone, and we’re not going to have him as the Doctor anymore!
Talia Franks: I still haven’t been able to bring myself to listen to the audio dramas because I don’t know if my heart can take having him again, because I want him so much. Like once I go down that road, I’m going to be so upset that I don’t have him on screen.
Lucia Kelly: You could read the comics, you can listen to the audio, and you can picture it in your head. See it in your mind. (Transition wobbles)
Lucia Kelly: So Rose comes home – Well, first of all, we have that message from the Doctor.
Lucia Kelly: Which is basically like, “I am very explicitly telling you multiple times stay put and stay home.” (Talia mhmms in agreement) Like, “This is the message. Have a fantastic life.” Right? And, okay, it’s a beautiful moment. There is no way on earth that the Doctor would be able to record that message looking straight ahead and then know that Rose is going to be at that point for the head tilt to work.
Lucia Kelly: It just – (Lucia breathes heavily through her nose in frustrated logic noises) it works beautifully visually, of course I’m crying at that moment, it’s a beautiful, visual moment. It makes no sense subjectively.
Talia Franks: I feel like the Doctor knows Rose well enough that she wouldn’t keep looking at him, that she would try to examine –
Lucia Kelly: But where would she be in the TARDIS? He doesn’t know. Just indulge me for the moment of like, him thinking that she’s going to be where she is, but she’s actually on the opposite side of the TARDIS, so he’s facing away from her during that moment.
Talia Franks: It would be hilarious.
Lucia Kelly: It would be hilarious. It would break the tension. It would absolutely ruin the moment. But that’s the more realistic thing if he was trying to do that.
Lucia Kelly: Rose comes home, and par for the course, she treats Jackie and Mickey horribly. Like, full, petulant teenager is on display here. She is 100% about her own feelings. What she’s thinking. What she knows is best. It’s so hard to watch on multiple levels.
Lucia Kelly: First of all, because I have 100% been that teenager, like that’s a very real reaction, which I appreciate. What I don’t appreciate is that kind of behavior, and that mindset, and deliberately, and explicitly, on purpose, defying the Doctor’s last instruction to her, is rewarded. I hate that. I hate that this safety protocol is put in place specifically to help her and to save her life.
Lucia Kelly: And that it’s a sensible pl-, like, the point that the Doctor makes, about how the TARDIS should never be in the hands of the Daleks, is a fucking valid point.
Talia Franks: Mm.
Lucia Kelly: It is so reckless. This is primary Gryffindor privilege behavior. This is primary Gryffindor behavior being rewarded, when it’s not smart, it’s completely – It’s framed in a way that’s like, she’s being so selfless, she’s sacrificing herself for the greater good. No, she’s fulfilling her fantasy of being the hero, and it’s being rewarded. And I hate that.
Talia Franks: Yeah. I get that. At the same time, I feel like it wouldn’t have worked, if it wouldn’t have worked.
Talia Franks: The TARDIS never would have gone against the Doctor’s wishes, and let her go back, if she wasn’t given the power to fix everything.
Lucia Kelly: Well, yeah, I also hate that she has to break the TARDIS. She has to damage the TARDIS in order for this to happen. I don’t know. If she had talked to the TARDIS, if she had had this emotional connection to the ship?
Talia Franks: Also it kinda breaks canon with the comics, cause in the comics, the Doctor partially teaches Rose how to fly the TARDIS.
Lucia Kelly: Hmm. That’s within the text of the TV show as well, I think, because we often see the way that he guides his companions to help him pilot the TARDIS.
Lucia Kelly: It just makes me so upset, and I get why, I get why they did it that way. I just wish it had been different.
Lucia Kelly: But yeah, so Bad Wolf.
Talia Franks: The TARDIS gives Rose magic powers.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. So Rose has this tantrum, and then- First of all, she didn’t see the huge letters across the field, that take up a third of the field? So they go through this whole rigmarole, because she’s been given a message that Bad Wolf is a connection to the Doctor, and she pulls the TARDIS apart, and she takes in “Time Essence”? She looks into the eye of the Vortex and gains powers?
Talia Franks: So what I think, and this is why I bring up the Moment, I think that, and bear with me here, I think–this isn’t what was happening in Season One, in Season One it was just magical garbage–but I think, in my retroactive opinion, is that Rose looked into the Time Vortex, and imbibed the power of the Moment.
Lucia Kelly: Okay. Cause remind me, it’s been, it’s been a minute since I’ve watched the 50th… Is there a reason…?
Talia Franks: Because the thing is, the thing is, the thing is the Moment has the power to destroy entire planets.
Talia Franks: It canonically has the power to destroy entire planets.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: And unright things.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. Is, remind me, is there any context given for the phrase “Bad Wolf” from the Moment?
Talia Franks: The context, the context… Yeah, so here, I’ll pull up…
Lucia Kelly: Because that was another thing that bothered me is that there is no inciting incident or circumstance for that phrase.
Lucia Kelly: It’s one of, it’s, and this is the thing with time travel and time travel loops, which kind of is something that often you come up against, when you’re writing this kind of fiction is like, the idea of the self-contained time loop, and how that’s not… That doesn’t work.
Talia Franks: Yeah. So, basically what happens is the Moment, basically the Moment says in the 50th says, “I hear you, all of you jangling around in that dusty old head of yours. I chose this face and form, especially for you. It’s from your past. Or possibly your future. I always get those two mixed up.” The warrior says, the Warrior Doctor says, “I don’t have a future.” The Moment says, “I think I’m called Rose Tyler. No, yes, no. Sorry. No. Now in this form I’m called the Bad Wolf.”
Lucia Kelly: Right. So there’s still no actual context given to that phrase. It’s just that the term Bad Wolf sounded cool. And Russell T Davies is like, “This sounds fun.” There’s no actual in context reason, which…
Talia Franks: Cause the thing is, the Bad Wolf creates itself. The Bad Wolf sees the words, “Bad Wolf,” (Lucia groans in the background.) And decides to spread it around.
Lucia Kelly: But that doesn’t make sense, Talia. There has to be a chicken or an egg.
Lucia Kelly: (Lucia groans) Yeah, the magic powers. What the…? She can disintegrate Daleks on sight. She brings Jack back to life permanently.
Talia Franks: Permanently.
Lucia Kelly: That boy will never die. He’s not allowed. (Lucia laughs) Oh, which is reminding me of one of my favorite Doctor Who short stories, which is when… I can’t remember what it’s called, either the book or the short story, which I know is so helpful, but it’s Jack is in, I think 18th century England, and there’s a boy who basically has some aspect to the rift. Like he’s, he’s basically like Gwen, Gwyneth. He has some aspect to ESP. So when people ask him questions, he just sort of automatically knows the answer. And he’s been turned into kind of a side show, freak show because of this. And then basically it’s all about how this boy is in an awful situation because he’s like being held against his will and all this sort of stuff. And it’s about how Jack kind of saves him. And, but the question he asks is, “How am I going to die?” And the boy says, “I don’t know. Like I can’t answer that, it’s beyond time.” And just… (Lucia quietly yells.)
Talia Franks: That is rough, buddy.
Lucia Kelly: It’s rough. And this is where Jack is like basically kind of, one of his lowest points in his depression cycle as well. It’s like 18th century Victorian noir with Jack as the, like Jake the detective character who’s trying to save what’s left of this corrupted world.
Talia Franks: I was feeling so happy and peaceful and now I want to cry again.
Lucia Kelly: You’re talking to me about, about fiction. What, what, what, how did you think this was going to end? (Lucia laughs.)
Talia Franks: I need more tea.
Lucia Kelly: Don’t worry. I’m dead sweet.
Lucia Kelly: So the Rose, the Rose. (Lucia laughs.) So Rose imbibes the magical time essence. Mickey and Jackie get left behind. Rose comes back to the future. She disintegrates all the Daleks. She brings Jack back to life forever. And then the Doctor kisses her to transfer the time essence magic powers to him instead. And I ask Why? Who knows? Like I don’t see, I don’t see why, like, a hug or like, any kind of touch would have worked just as well. There’s no reason for there to be a kiss there, apart from the fact that they want there to be this complicated, weird, romantic relationship between the Doctor and Rose.
Lucia Kelly: Speaking
Talia Franks: of kissing. Can we talk about the fact that we see Rose’s reaction to being kissed by Jack, but not the Doctor’s?
Lucia Kelly: Uh huh! We sure can. Yeah, let’s avoid talking about that whole end scene that makes me so upset and mad. I’m pretty sure we got confirmation of our throuple here.
Talia Franks: Mhmm.
Lucia Kelly: I’m pretty sure, I’m pretty sure, like Jack’s been doing a lot of work with Rose offscreen unpacking her homophobia and introducing her to the idea of a throuple and opening her mind to the possibilities. The Doctor was always up for it.
Lucia Kelly: The Doctor was always up for it. (Lucia laughs.) Of course,
Talia Franks: he wants to dance, who with?
Talia Franks: Yeah, I do
Lucia Kelly: love the fact that, that, like that whole scene is so gorgeous. The–and this is what I’m talking about, where we see Jack’s growth, like the serious, the seriousness with which he sort of holds Rose down and says like,” You are worth fighting for.” Kisses her and goes straight to the Doctor and does the same. And his command of the volunteers, how he stands up to the Daleks, fights to his last breath. Like, we really see just how much being with the Doctor has affected how he thinks about life and how he wants to greet it.
Talia Franks: Also, I was going to say the Daleks themselves just menacing onwards, and the way that they let themselves get shot at, but just move forwards, not killing people until the last moment. And just… The way that they just play with people is so fucked up and I love it and hate it. I love the characterization and I hate the way it affects the characters and…
Lucia Kelly: Oh yeah. The, the, the moment where you see, when the Doctor and Jack and Rosa first on the ship, and like, you see that real anger from the Doctor and how, just how traumatic this is for him, the moment with him, it’s so clear the visual language when he is back on the inside of the TARDIS and just leaning against the doors…
Talia Franks: Oh my goodness.
Lucia Kelly: And you get that like very slow close up as you hear the Daleks, and you know, you know that he is having war flashbacks, like.. It’s just done so well. And the kind of conversations that he and the Emperor Dalek have…
Talia Franks: I just…
Lucia Kelly: …are excellent as well.
Talia Franks: I’m actually crying right now. It’s just, it’s so intense and it’s so— I need another tissue. (Lucia laughs and Talia blows their nose)
Talia Franks: Oh, sorry. Did I forget to mute myself that time? (Talia wheezes/laughs)
Lucia Kelly: No, I want you to keep that in so people can know the true depths of your pain
Talia Franks: I’ve just been muting myself every time that I blow my nose from crying, (Talia laughs) because I don’t want to interrupt the podcast. It’s why I’ve been letting you talk this whole episode, because I’ve been too busy crying in the background. (Talia and Lucia laugh)
Talia Franks: This episode is just going to be Lucia, like unpacking the whole episode and Talia slowly weeping.
Lucia Kelly: It’s like yes, let me take you on this path of devastation. (Talia blows their nose again) Muahahaha (Talia sniffs) Let me make this sad episode, even sadder in your head. (Talia sniffs again)
Talia Franks: I’m just so devastated both by the episode, by Eccleston leaving, by Jack being left behind, the look of sad disgust on his face. (Lucia gasps in excitement)
Lucia Kelly: I want to discuss this. Do you think, in the moment, that the Doctor knew? Cause we don’t, we, the audience, see Jack being brought back to life. The Doctor didn’t see that. He sees Rose being super stressed out and breaking apart at the seams as she like dramatically monologues and disintegrates Daleks.
Talia Franks: I think when she says I bring life, I think he knows what she did. Because he says in Season Three, that he deliberately left Jack there. (Lucia hmmms in contemplation)
Lucia Kelly: Cause, like, the way that the episode plays out, I could 100% see him just being like overwhelmed in that moment, being like, “There is too many things going on here. (Lucia laughs) Something’s got to give, and that thing is Jack.” (Talia mhmms in agreement) Cause also the thing is, and I think he does bring this up in Season Three as well. Jack’s not completely helpless. He does have his own transport. It’s not like, he’s not leaving him on a deserted island with nothing but a coconut and a pistol. Like, he does have some options. (Talia mhmms in agreement) It’s a shitty thing to do,
Lucia Kelly: Another, in terms of, again, just (Lucia makes chef’s kiss noise) spot on direction, a moment that I always, and I know this is a very me moment to love, but (Lucia laughs) the moment when Lynda dies, like, just before, and you see the Daleks rising up.
Talia Franks: No Lucia!
Lucia Kelly: And— (Lucia bursts into laughter)
Talia Franks: What’s wrong with you!? What–
Lucia Kelly: I know!
Talia Franks: What’s wrong with you?!
Lucia Kelly: But the moment when we see the Daleks rising- So like we’re focusing on the door, everyone’s focusing on the door being like, “Oh my gosh, are they going to get through the door?” The Daleks rise up behind her. And because there’s no sound in space, we don’t hear them say ” Exterminate,” but we see the lights flashing in time. That is so cool! That’s so good!
Talia Franks: What’s wrong with you?!
Lucia Kelly: That’s some excellent world building!
Talia Franks: I’ve never identified with Amani more in my life. (Lucia bursts into laughter) When he saw you for the first time and said “What’s wrong with you?”
Talia Franks: Because what’s wrong with you? Why is that your favorite moment?
Lucia Kelly: I don’t know! It’s just, it’s the-
Talia Franks: Get on the feelings bench, right now! You’re benched! You’re benched right now! Get over there! Go!
Lucia Kelly: I dunno. It’s the film student in me. I’m just like, “Oh, that’s so good! That’s such brilliant world-building and like, visual storytelling and yes, let’s use the real world rules! Love it!”, And so I can never give Lynda her moment of like respectful peace. Cause I’m always just being like, “The production design!” (Lucia starts laughing again)
Lucia Kelly: I’m sorry. I’m a very broken bad person. (Lucia continues to laugh)
Talia Franks: I’m just going cry, I’m just gonna cry now
Lucia Kelly: So, do we want to talk about the ethics of the Delta wave and that whole dilemma?
Talia Franks: It’s the Time War all over again.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, I find it interesting that the Doctor is framed as being pushed towards genocide quite often (Talia mhmms in agreement) for a character we are meant to respect and (Talia mhmms in agreement) admire.
Lucia Kelly: This happens multiple times. (Talia mhmms in agreement)
Lucia Kelly: It’s ironically using remarkably similar sort of thought processing and justification that the phrase “I’m just doing my job” brings to mind.
Talia Franks: Not really.
Lucia Kelly: You don’t reckon?
Talia Franks: I feel like the phrase, I feel like the phrase “Just doing my job” implies that someone higher up is pulling the strings and someone who says “I’m just doing my job” has no, has no power, has no, has no, like, true choice.
Talia Franks: Like someone who’s “just doing their job” feels like they’re a cog in the machine. Whereas someone like the Doctor is deciding whether or not the machine is running.
Lucia Kelly: Hmm. I guess… Yeah. I guess I hadn’t fully considered the hierarchical nature of that phrase. However, at the same time, there are plenty of people who leave their jobs when they find them morally abhorrent.
Talia Franks: Yeah, no.
Lucia Kelly: And I understand, and I understand that there can be many outside circumstances, but there are always ways to resist. And I have always viewed the phrase, “I was just doing my job” as a way people justify inaction.
Talia Franks: Oh, it’s definitely a way people justify inaction, but I’m saying the Doctor’s not doing inaction.
Talia Franks: He is actively choosing to do something,
Lucia Kelly: But do you think that he, the Doctor, views quote, unquote, saving humanity, saving the day as his job? That’s his role within the universe?
Talia Franks: Yes.
Lucia Kelly: And so…
Talia Franks: That’s what he says.
Lucia Kelly:…these big decisions…
Talia Franks: He says that, explicitly, in World War Three. He says “This is my life, Jackie. It’s not fun. It’s not smart. It’s just standing up and making a decision because nobody else will.” (Lucia hmms in recognition) And it’s this Doctor that says that.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: Which is interesting because he often doesn’t make the decision. He waits until the absolute last minute to make the decision. Because he’s just waiting for someone else to make the decision for him.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. The Doctor’s inaction and how that leads to extreme action is definitely something I want to watch for going forward. Cause I think it’s a pattern…
Talia Franks: It actually
Lucia Kelly: …that he, that he tends to use a lot.
Talia Franks: I was going to say, it comes up in one of my absolute least favorite episodes. It’s in Season Eight with Capaldi. So you haven’t seen it. And basically the Doctor forces, Clara to make that decision.
Lucia Kelly: Ooooh.
Talia Franks: Yeah. He basically says that he’s not– I haven’t seen this episode in forever because I hate it, so I try not to rewatch it if I can– but if I’m remembering correctly, he forces Clara to make the decision because he says that he’s not a human, so it’s not his choice to make. So he forces her to make it
Lucia Kelly: Aww, I cannot wait for that episode. That’s going to be fun. Yeah. So I think, I think we’ll, we’ll keep an eye out for the way that the Doctor deals with big problems and sort of put a pin in it because it definitely seems to be a pattern with him that he seems to like waver between, always on the move, always acting, always trying to save, always trying to improve the world in some way. And then in many ways, actually, similar to Rose in that sort of like, big picture, big picture, big picture, can’t think about it, don’t want to think about it and using other people’s distress as a way to distract from the problems in their own life. (Talia mhmms in agreement)
Lucia Kelly: But that unfortunately is a dilemma that Christopher Eccleston will not be solving for us because it is time to say goodbye.
Talia Franks: He was fantastic.
Lucia Kelly: He was fantastic.
Talia Franks: He was so fantastic! (Talia whines before sighing heavily)
Lucia Kelly: We will miss him. He’s done an absolutely phenomenal job. He had such a huge ask to bring back this iconic character and to be the face of that character, right? (Talia mhmms in agreement) The very first new Doctor. Was such enormous shoes to fill.
Talia Franks: And he filled them.
Lucia Kelly: Absolutely just to the very limit. In fact, I think he might have found those shoes a bit small, (Talia mhmms in agreement) which is remarkable. (Talia mhmms in agreement and Lucia sighs)
Lucia Kelly: And we say goodbye to Mr. Eccleston and Hello to Mr. Tennant! And he’s so baby! He’s so small!
Lucia Kelly: Isn’t David Tennant a Sir actually?
Lucia Kelly: I believe is.
Lucia Kelly: I thought he was a Sir. Isn’t he Sir Tennant?
Lucia Kelly: Let me.
Talia Franks: I thought he was a Sir. (Talia laughs)
Lucia Kelly: Hang on “David Tennant knighthood.” (keyboard sounds as Lucia searches on Google)
Lucia Kelly: Nope.
Talia Franks: No, he’s just a Sir in the episode. I’m thinking of,
Talia Franks: He’s just a Sir in the episode
Talia Franks: I’m thinking of the Doctor. (Lucia laughs)
Lucia Kelly: David Tennant is so baby. It was like, even in this brief little moment, like his little freckles! He’s 35, which is wild to me. He looks so much younger.
Talia Franks: Okay.
Lucia Kelly: He was 35, possibly 34 at the time of filming this.
Talia Franks: Alright, not to diverge from David Tennant too much. But to skip ahead a Doctor, Matt Smith, when he started, he started Doctor Who in 2010. So when he filmed his first appearance in 2009,
Talia Franks: he was only 26.
Lucia Kelly: No! (Talia starts cackling) That’s not allowed!
Talia Franks: Sorry.
Lucia Kelly: No!
Talia Franks: I just felt like freaking out a little bit because when it, aired,
Lucia Kelly: Don’t remind me
Talia Franks: when it aired
Lucia Kelly: don’t remind me how much I need to do in order to like,
Talia Franks: Hey, we’re the same age! I was shook when I remembered that when he filmed that, cause The End of Time, David ended his Doctorhood and the New Year’s of 2009, 2010. And Matt Smith’s birthday is in October, in his born in 1982, which means that when he like filmed his first bits of Doctor Who he was only 26, (Lucia inhales deeply as Talia continues giggling)
Talia Franks: we’re old Lucia,
Lucia Kelly: no, Matt Smith is freakishly young. This is the way we frame it.
Lucia Kelly: No, ughahhhh,
Talia Franks: So Matt Smith has a genuine baby face, but David Tennant
Lucia Kelly: Matt Smith is genuine baby
Talia Franks: Yeah, Matt Smith is genuine baby David Tennant just has a baby face. (Transition wobbles)
Lucia Kelly: I’ve talked about, I’ve talked about my favorite moment. (Lucia dissolves into laughter)
Lucia Kelly: What was your favorite moment?
Talia Franks: Let me look at my notes again.
Talia Franks: I think it was probably the throuple moment where Jack kisses Rose and the Doctor in the exact same way, because while I think there’s a lot of problematic stuff about the age differences in their relationship,
Lucia Kelly: Yeah!
Talia Franks: I really ship the throuple a lot. Like I like to pretend in my brain that Rose is the age of Billie Piper, which is like 25.
Talia Franks: And that Jack is the age that John Barrowman looks, which is, I don’t know how old John Barrowman is in this episode, but he looks like he’s late twenties. (Lucia starts cackling)
Lucia Kelly: I love that! It’s not about the actual age, it’s about the vibes,
Talia Franks: Yeah, well, it’s because like this, this show is like very, we don’t care anything about the actors other than their acting skill. Like we establish that, we establish that like we care that the actors are good at acting because they are. Acting gets a five out of five, every single episode we’ve established this.
Talia Franks: Like I looked at the spreadsheet like we should just pre-fill five in every, in every rubric. How old the actors are. Doesn’t really matter to me.
Lucia Kelly: I will say. And we’ll address this more in the next episode, the Christmas Invasion. I love the way that they address and explain regeneration, especially this first time when everyone’s confused and stressed,
Talia Franks: The way that he explains it to Clara is trash. I feel so bad for Clara.
Lucia Kelly: This first time is fine.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, the way he talks about just the. The way that he reassures Rose and the way that his last moments with her affirming her and affirming his love for her. Whatever kind of love that is. He is trying to use this extremely stressful moment to keep Rose calm and informed (Talia mhmms in agreement) is a really high form of love (Talia mhmms in agreement) that I adore.
Talia Franks: You’re going to make me cry again. (Lucia stifles laughter)
Lucia Kelly: That’s my other favorite moment. Are you happy? I chose an appropriate favorite moment.
Talia Franks: Yeah, I mean, that is also my other favorite moment. I would say probably my least favorite moment is when Rose tells Mickey that there’s nothing left for her there.
Talia Franks: So I would say I hate that she says that, but I do love his reaction, which is just,
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: Alright. Okay. If you really believe that, then I’ll help you.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah
Talia Franks: cause he’s a real one. Mickey’s a real one.
Lucia Kelly: He is! He is like
Talia Franks: they say Mickey, the idiot, they say that he’s useless or whatever, but no, he’s a real one!
Lucia Kelly: The way that Rose treats, Jackie and Mickey in this episode is atrocious. Just it’s just awful. Especially when they’re helping her. (Talia mhmms in agreement) And like trying their best and comforting her. And like she’s in this moment of extreme distress. Like we talk way back in episode one, we talked about how Rose is meant to be 19.
Lucia Kelly: And it feels like a lot of the time the writers forget that because Billie Piper is very clearly 25. (Lucia laughs and Talia mhmms in agreement)
Talia Franks: but I feel like
Lucia Kelly: this to me felt 19, like
Talia Franks: It definitely felt 19
Lucia Kelly: she was feeling all 19 years of that. And Rose is lucky that Mickey and Jackie love her is all I’m saying, (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: Uh huh
Lucia Kelly: yeah, no, my least favorite moment is Jackie and Rose in the TARDIS talking about her dad.
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: I hate that. I hate that. I hate that. I hate that Rose uses that against her. (Talia mhmms in agreement)
Lucia Kelly: I hate the manipulation. I hate, I hate the fact that Jackie walks away from that conversation and comes to the conclusion that Rose is right.
Lucia Kelly: And it feels like it feels like a concession, (Talia mhmms in agreement)
Lucia Kelly: like it’s just terrible.
Lucia Kelly: And to that end, Who are your hero and Adam?
Talia Franks: I feel like my hero is Jack and my Adam is Roderick. (Lucia wheezes with laughter) We knew he was going to be the Adam! We knew he was going to be the Adam all along. I said it last time I said it last episode that he was gonna be the Adam.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah,
Talia Franks: I think we got so caught up in the feels that we forgot he existed, but he was definitely the Adam. (Talia laughs)
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. Rose was running for second place for a minute there, but Roderick took the gold or, or failed to take the gold as the case my be.
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: Poor Guy, he just wanted to take his money and run and no one would let him
Lucia Kelly: For me, the Hero is the Doctor. Like,
Talia Franks: Oh yeah, I guess the hero is the Doctor. I was thinking, yeah, you’re right. The hero is the Doctor. I was thinking of how Jack sacrifices himself and genuinely sacrifices himself,
Lucia Kelly: Yeah
Talia Franks: I mean, I think Doctor, the Doctor knows he’s going to be okay. Even if he’s not himself. Jack genuinely thinks he’s going to be dead. And he gives up the loves of his life and comes to peace with the fact that the entire world is going to be destroyed.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, I definitely, I definitely, I mean, there’s nothing saying we can’t have, we’ve had the same hero and Adam for a while, but there’s nothing saying that we can’t have different heroes in Adams.
Talia Franks: Like I also loved the Doctor. I feel like the Doctor is definitely I can definitely see the Doctor as the hero and I want to make him the hero because it’s the last time that he’s here.
Talia Franks: I’m like, honestly torn about whether or not making the Doctor Jack the hero or the Adam or the hero, the hero. Roderick’s definitely the Adam, but I I’m torn about whether or not to make the Doctor Jack the hero. I feel like I also kind of want to give it to Jack just because the Doctor abandons Jack, not, I don’t want to give it to Jack,
Lucia Kelly: As a consolation prize?? (Lucia starts laughing)
Talia Franks: Not as a consolation, but because I disliked the Doctor for abandoning Jack, like it’s not a consolation for Jack. It’s a demerit for the Doctor,
Lucia Kelly: The Doctor abandoned you. Have this shiny metal. (Talia and Lucia laugh)
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, I just, I, the conversations around both Jack and the Doctor about cowardice in this episode is… I think coward is a very loaded word. (Talia mhmms in agreement) And
Lucia Kelly: I love where Jack comes down on coward, I don’t like where the Doctor comes down on coward.
Talia Franks: Me either.
Lucia Kelly: Like, I feel like, I feel like Jack and the Doctor have different definitions of the word coward. And I agree far more with Jack’s interpretation than the Doctor’s.
Talia Franks: I don’t think the Doctor actually believed in that definition of coward.
Talia Franks: That’s not the Doctor’s definition of coward. That’s the Doctor answering the Dalek’s question.
Talia Franks: Like the Doctor’s not… the Doctor’s not saying “I’m a coward.” The emperor says, “what are you a coward or a killer?” And the Doctor says “coward, any day.” So he’s not saying that yes, this is my full definition of coward. He’s just answering it’s a yes or no question. So he said like, I’d rather be a coward than a killer. Is what he’s saying. He’s not saying that “this is what I believe a coward to be.” (Lucia hmmms in contemplation) In my perception, the Doctor’s not saying “this is cowardice.” He’s saying “I won’t be a killer.”
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. I think definition of power is also something we should keep an eye on going forward, because then tying it back to this idea of the next Doctor is born directly out of the situations in which the last Doctor died. I think a lot of Ten is characterized and defined by self-loathing, which is a very interesting trait to give someone who is so outwardly loving and very much where I think the Doctor is at the Ninth Doctor is at, at the point of his regeneration in terms of how he thinks about himself and how he thinks about himself specifically in the context of the time war and what he did.
Talia Franks: Yeah. I mean, I think it’s very, it’s very much worth noting that Nine and Ten are the two Doctors who think that the Time Lords are all dead.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: And who let it affect them.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: Eleven doesn’t,
Lucia Kelly: I, oh I have thoughts. I
Talia Franks: Eleven lets it affect him, but not on the surface.
Lucia Kelly: I have thoughts about how the Schrodinger’s cat of the whole did the time war happen the Time Lords dead, that whole situation that they decide to just kind of, (Lucia makes noises of disgruntlement) like take back?
Lucia Kelly: Like they make like I was saying in episode two I think it’s such a ballsy move to say, you know what? Yeah. The Doctor committed mass genocide, including against his own people and all the Time Lords are dead, that is a crazy ballsy move. The fact that they then walk it back three years later, (Lucia inhales deeply)
Talia Franks: I think it’s
Lucia Kelly: I have opinions.
Talia Franks: I think it’s actually seven years later,
Lucia Kelly: seven years later, three Doctors later.
Talia Franks: But but I mean then what they do seven years after that with the Timeless Children is interesting. I mean, you know about the Timeless Children, right?
Lucia Kelly: I do. I I have I’ve absorbed some, some knowledge through osmosis, but that’s all ahead of us.
Lucia Kelly: That’s all ahead of us. This is the end of season one. We’ve had a marvelous ride.
Talia Franks: Alright alright. Shall we do the grading?
Lucia Kelly: Let’s get to grading.
Talia Franks: Production?
Lucia Kelly: Five,
Talia Franks: five. Yeah.
Talia Franks: Writing.
Lucia Kelly: possibly also five, maybe four.
Talia Franks: I think it’s a five.
Talia and Lucia Together: Acting,
Lucia Kelly: five. We know this.
Talia Franks: Science?
Lucia Kelly: This is where it all falls down.
Lucia Kelly: The science is really questionable. I hadn’t even thought about what you brought up earlier with the, with the ray. The fact that the ryt doesn’t make sense once you know (Talia giggles) what it actually does. Yeah.
Talia Franks: Is there anything about the science that does make sense? Is my question I was about to say let’s give it a two, but then I was like, wait a minute, that’s a bit arbitrary. And also what is there about the science that makes sense?
Lucia Kelly: I mean, even the idea of Daleks building themselves from the cells of humans.
Talia Franks: I mean, that’s also something to keep track of is the, Daleks have an interesting habit of blending with humans.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. Isn’t it just fascinating how these perpetuators of racial purity can’t actually exist in the vacuum, they crave (Talia mhmms in agreement) and always use and abuse creatures that they view as lesser than isn’t that interesting.
Talia Franks: Yeah. And also isn’t it interesting, isn’t it, we didn’t even get to all the religious overtones, (Lucia hmmms in interest) but I think we’re running a little low on time.
Lucia Kelly: I’m not sure any of the science makes sense. (Lucia dissolves into despairing laughter) Like even, even using, even using the Controller as a human processor,
Talia Franks: They come back to that and like season 12, about using people as human processors
Lucia Kelly: I refuse, I refuse to, I know we humans in the 21st century have not yet built a computer to match the complexities and capabilities of the human brain. I refuse to believe that the Daleks have not,
Lucia Kelly: I could buy them using a human as a way of degrading them and dehumanizing them.
Talia Franks: Literally.
Lucia Kelly: Literally. Yeah. I don’t buy that. That’s their only path
Talia Franks: or maybe they just literally wanted to do it that way.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: Yeah, I think we have to give science a zero, unfortunately. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: Rewatchability is a five though,
Lucia Kelly: Rewatchability is a five, straight up,
Talia Franks: At least this makes the math easy. (Lucia cackles)
Talia Franks: It’s 80%
Lucia Kelly: It’s 80%, which is a solid, it’s a solid B minus, which feels right.
Lucia Kelly: An absolutely solid B minus of an episode and a beautiful, gorgeous sendoff for Christopher Eccleston.
This has been the Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Podcast.
Lucia Kelly: We hope you enjoyed this adventure with us through space and time.
Talia Franks: You can find this elsewhere on the internet, on Twitter, Tumblr and Instagram as @WibblyPod. Follow us for more wibbly, wobbly content.
Lucia Kelly: You can find out more information about us and our content on wibblywobblytimeywimey.net And full transcripts for episodes at wibblywobblytimeywimey.net/transcripts
Talia Franks: If you’d like to get in touch, you can send us an email at email@example.com.
Lucia Kelly: Please rate and review us on apple podcasts and other platforms as it helps other people find us and our content.
Talia Franks: Special thanks to our editor Owen Elphick, who has been a vital member of the Wibbly Wobbly team.
Lucia Kelly: That’s all for now. Catch you in the time vortex!