Transcript for Flux: The Wrap-Up Episode (A Wibbly Wobbly Not-So-Mini Minisode!)

Talia Franks: Hello, and welcome to the Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Podcast!

Lucia Kelly: I’m Lucia Kelly, expert at applied analysis, and lost causes are my speciality.

Talia Franks: And I’m Talia Franks, media critic, fanfic enthusiast, and I approach everything with caution, or abandon, one of the two.

Lucia Kelly: And we’re here today to talk about a Wibbly Wobbly not so mini minisode although I feel like the last three have not been so mini minisodes. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: (Talia sighs deeply) Yeah. I actually even put that on the tin for the last one.

Lucia Kelly: We’ve given up at this point. We can’t do minisodes. We’re trying. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: We really can’t do minisodes. (Talia laughs)

Talia Franks: Today we’re here to talk about Flux, the Thirteenth series of Doctor Who all at once!

Talia Franks: Wooo!

Lucia Kelly: Reminder that time isn’t a straight line. It can twist into any shape that as such, this is a fully spoiled podcast. We might bring things in from later in the show, the comics, the books, the audio dramas, or even fan theories and articles.

Talia Franks: With that out of the way the Doctor is being trisected across disparate dimensions and is split across three realities. So let’s get in the TARDIS! (Transition wobbles)

Lucia Kelly: Hey there. This is Lucia from the future. This episode covers some triggering subject matter. So we wanted to put in a content warning for discussions of trauma, specifically PTSD and other emotional responses relating to verbal and mental abuse during childhood, as well as discussions of death, processing grief and genocide.

Lucia Kelly: Please take care of yourselves. Listening to us talk about heavy subject matters like this shouldn’t come at the cost of your own mental health and wellbeing. And if this episode isn’t for you, that is completely okay, and we hope you have a lovely rest of your day.

Lucia Kelly: With that out of the way, it’s time to jump out of the TARDIS and into the episode! Catch you on the other side. (Transition wobbles)

Lucia Kelly: Wikipedia’s summary is: Jodie Whittaker returns for her third and final series as the Thirteenth Doctor, the most recent incarnation of the Doctor, an alien Time Lord, who travels through time and space in their ship, the TARDIS, which externally assumes the appearance of a British police box.

Lucia Kelly: The Thirteenth series also stars Mandip Gill and John Bishop as the Doctor’s traveling companions, playing Yasmin Khan and Dan Lewis, respectively. The series follows the Thirteenth Doctor and her companions as they navigate a universe ending anomaly called the Flux while dealing with enemies and secrets from the Doctor’s past.

Talia Franks: Our summary is that this is the most wibbly wobbly season yet, featuring Thasmin so potent it’s an affront they didn’t kiss, and unnecessary, but relatively inoffensive, white man that we can’t help but like, villains with ‘fits to die for (literally), gaslighting colonizers, star crossed lovers, man’s best friend, and women constantly and consistently leading every scene.

Lucia Kelly: I think – not to spoil anything – but I think I’m going to come down on Fabulous for Flux, as a whole. Individually, it sure was a rollercoaster.

Lucia Kelly: Having recently watched it all, as one cohesive story, it was pretty good. There were many gaps! But I was much more willing to go on that journey and forgive those gaps when I saw them all together.

Talia Franks: Yeah. I feel like and, so this is very unfair that you never finished watching the finale, because I feel like if you finished watching the finale, you would agree with me that the finale does work very well as a finale.

Talia Franks: Having watched all six of them together, like my belief in that is even further confirmed. Because honestly I feel like part of the reason I enjoy the final episode so much as a finale is that I feel like the final two episodes are a finale together. It’s not just that The Vanquishers is a finale episode.

Talia Franks: It’s that Survivors of the Flux and The Vanquishers work together to end cap the season.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, I definitely see that. It makes me wonder – I’ve heard a lot of criticism, criticism in the literary sense of the term, that this show suffers from comparing it to Netflix binging.

Lucia Kelly: Like, it works better as one cohesive whole. It works better as a sort of extended movie. To split it up into the six parts and have those six parts spread out over a month and a half, did not actually serve the story well.

Talia Franks: Yeah, I definitely think that it works better as one cohesive story. Like having watched it all as a binge, I didn’t watch it all in one go. I watched it two episodes at a time over the course of three days. And like I said, I watched Survivors of the Flux and The Vanquishers back to back. And I think as a finale episode together, they work super well.

Talia Franks: I feel like the climax is right at the end of Survivors of the Flux, just at the beginning of The Vanquishers. And then the reason The Vanquishers feels rushed in wrapping things up is because so much of leading up to the climax was in Survivors of the Flux.

Lucia Kelly: Well, I remember us talking way back at the beginning on episode one when we were like, “I don’t think it’s fair to judge it, because it’s the first part of act one,” like that kind of carried through, right? Episode one, episode 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. They were all two parters of each act of the whole story.

Talia Franks: Mhmm.

Lucia Kelly: And so, again, watching them as individual separate things is like walking in halfway through Hamlet and then complaining that you don’t know what’s going on. Like it’s, it, it doesn’t serve the story well. And I feel like either, as a whole, you really needed to dive into this idea of it being a cohesive story, or you needed to actually make it more separate.

Talia Franks: Mhmm

Lucia Kelly: And I’m leaning towards more separate.

Talia Franks: I mean, I’m honestly leaning towards making it more cohesive. I like the idea of it being a connected story. I mean, honestly I think it works well as it is. I really enjoyed it.

Talia Franks: And I feel like, are there places where it could be better? Yes. But I feel like a lot of the places where people have criticisms, I can understand how they came to those points, but I feel like I disagree. So for example, to talk about something that we talked about last episode, Karvanista? As I was rewatching and sort of keeping an eye out for the tells after Karvanista finds out about his whole species being destroyed. I feel like, all his reactions, and all the reactions of the other companions, and of the other people in the story really made sense to me.

Talia Franks: Because for me – I mean, for one, I really did think that his howl made sense. I know that you didn’t like it. Upon rewatching, I thought it felt sincere.

Lucia Kelly: They needed to turn up the bass. It was way too human. It was way too weak. I’m not going to change my mind. I’m sorry.

Talia Franks: (Lucia laughs) I feel differently. But, like the fact that his reaction to the Sontarans killing all the Lupari was to kill all the Sontarans felt logical to me. Even down to the fact that he went off with Bel and Vinder made sense to me. Cause like, everyone I’ve seen, all these people being like, “Oh, Karvanista should have gone off with Dan.”

Talia Franks: And I’m like, “No!” I mean, I make jokes all the time about how I ship Danvanista, but I don’t actually, like Karvanista and Dan hate each other. They do not like each other, them going off together, would have made no sense.

Lucia Kelly: They’re at best right now, like right now, as the story ends, their relationship is best described as tolerant co-employees. Like, that’s it, that’s the extent of their relationship. They’ve been put on a group project together and they hate each other’s guts, like, (Lucia laughs) and don’t get me wrong, there’s space for that to go somewhere else, but that’s not where it is right now.

Talia Franks: Yeah, no. And so it makes so much sense for them to go off with Bel and Vinder because Bel and Vinder need somewhere to go.

Lucia Kelly: They’re going to need a babysitter soon enough.

Talia Franks: They need somewhere to go. They need a ship. It makes sense for them to go off not on their own. And also it makes sense for Karvanista to not be by himself. Cause he’s now the last of his kind, like we thought the Doctor was for so long. Like the Doctor is again now that – Well, one, there’s no more Time Lords again, because the Master destroyed them all and turned them into Cybermen, but also we don’t even know what the Doctor’s true species is. And it makes sense for him to not be isolated like that. Like, when someone is grieving and suffering, you one, don’t want them to be isolated, but two, you give them space to grieve without being on them all the time.

Talia Franks: Like when I have had family members pass, as I did recently, the last thing I want is for someone to constantly be on me saying, “I’m sorry for your loss.” And be constantly talking to me about it. It’s not like I’ve immediately moved on, but also – because there’s no really moving on I hate the, I hate the phrase move on, but it’s also, no one wants to focus on that pain full time. And (Talia sighs) especially when one’s entire species is gone, like how does one even conceptualize of that? So I think everyone giving space to Karvanista, and not coddling him about it, especially because he’s a person who puts so much distance between himself and other people to begin with, I think makes a lot of sense.

Talia Franks: Also the people who say, this is just another nitpick, not nitpick but another point where I feel outrage, the people who say that Yaz doesn’t feel empathy or emotion for other people, they can choke, okay? Like, I’ve seen people say that Yaz didn’t show empathy when Karvanista died. That is not true. Or that Yaz didn’t feel anything when Jericho died. That is absolutely not true. Just look at Mandip Gill’s face. When Jericho dies, the way she just softly says his name? Even when Gerald and Jean die in Village of the Angels and –

Lucia Kelly: Weeping! Weeping! She didn’t even know those folks! Who? So, hang on, who, who are these people that are saying that Yasmin doesn’t feel things? (Lucia makes gasping noises of disbelief) She’s the compassion companion! We see – No! – What are you guys watching? Cause it’s not what I’m watching. Like, she’s the heart companion. She’s got a little glowing heart above her head. That’s her role in the group!

Talia Franks: Yeah, no, these –

Lucia Kelly: What the –

Talia Franks: Yeah, these are the same people who, on Twitter, as soon as they saw that clip of Dan on Halloween saying that he wasn’t going to give candy to the guy with the eggs, said that they already liked him more than Yaz and Ryan, because he had more personality than them.

Lucia Kelly: Okay. I wanna – That – Oh, oh, oh all that unexamined racism and misogyny. Oh, wow. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: So again, this is why I have to say, this is why I was predisposed not to like Dan, and this is why a lot of people were predisposed not to like Dan, because people love Dan, and hate Yaz, and think that Yaz has no personality, and Yaz does not have an arc, or Yaz does not have anything to her.

Talia Franks: And that’s just untrue.

Lucia Kelly: It’s untrue. That’s not what’s happening.

Talia Franks: Yaz definitely has been under utilized. Like, Chris Chibnall, the writers, have done Yaz and the Thirteenth Doctor a disservice, they have not written them the way they need to be written. But honestly, the way people say, especially also the people, the people who say that Ryan doesn’t have an arc or a personality drive me nuts because we’ll get to this when we get to seasons Eleven and Twelve in the far future, but Ryan has one of the most beautiful arcs of any of the companions in the series.

Talia Franks: Like (Talia lets out a frustrated sigh) it’s just, it grinds my gears, honestly. Like, the racism is popping out in these people. And I don’t even know if these people know that it’s racism, like it’s so unexamined.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no, I was thinking about, well, here’s the other thing, that’s really weird, is that I feel like, in a bizarre turn of events, Dan was underutilized.

Lucia Kelly: Like they brought on this white man and for what? What did he – it’s so weird going back to The Halloween Apocalypse and they set up all these character hooks for him. They’ve got the fact that he’s, you know, broke. He refuses soup, even though he’s got nothing in his cupboards. He’s got this problem with pride.

Lucia Kelly: So we’re going to be doing something about how Dan, like clearly his arc is going to be something about learning how to deal with pride, learning how to balance his inner and outer life. You know, self-worth, maybe? Like figuring out that whole action, and even, even the bloody, you know, one sentence backstory info dump about how he was left at the altar.

Lucia Kelly: Like, we get little drops of stuff, and then nothing is done with it. He’s just there to be a funny man.

Talia Franks: Yeah.

Lucia Kelly: What’s going on? (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Yeah. Honestly, with Dan it’s very much, okay, you’re fine. But what is the point of you? That’s why in the intro summary I wrote, I was like, he’s relatively inoffensive, and we like him well enough, but also just what’s the point of him? I don’t dislike him, but what’s the point of him? (Talia laughs) Like he doesn’t need to be here.

Lucia Kelly: He’s literally just here to be – Which, also, that’s another thing that I only found out later. Apparently, John Bishop is a comedian. Like, that’s his thing. He’s a standup comedian.

Talia Franks: Mmhmm.

Lucia Kelly: And – (Lucia sighs) I don’t know, it just struck me as bizarre, like – (Lucia makes noises of incredulity and confusion) Well, because again, you’ve hired a comedian, and you don’t even really use him for jokes? Like, above Mandip’s head is a little heart to show that she’s the heart companion, and above John Bishop is like, a little comedy theater tragedy mask to show that he’s the comic relief.

Lucia Kelly: And neither of them was used, and you’ve even hired a comedian to be the comic relief, and all of the jokes you give him are subpar. They barely pass muster. Like wh- (Lucia breaks down laughing) why have – you – you’ve already got one companion that you don’t use properly, and instead of fixing that, you bring on another one, and run them both at half gear. What’s going on?

Talia Franks: Yeah.

Lucia Kelly: I need answers. (Transition wobbles)

Talia Franks: I did think, after watching all of this, it did solidify for me how much I enjoyed Thirteen’s journey as the Doctor across the different seasons, and I just really, really love The Timeless Child. I think it’s done something really different with Doctor Who, and I think, the way in which it’s changed the narrative of the Doctor has made things really interesting and special for me. And I really appreciate, especially how the Doctor doesn’t open the watch at the end and leaves it in the custody of the TARDIS. I don’t know if you’ve seen that video on YouTube? I’ll put it in that episode description.

Talia Franks: But there is a video that’s an interview with Chris Chibnall and Jodie Whittaker where they talk about the journey that the Doctor goes on, and something that Chris Chibnall says, that really sticks with me, he says something along the lines of how this is very much an adoption narrative and how the Doctor is seeking these answers, but once she finds them, like seeking them and finding them is different. So once she has them, actually opening the watch and discovering these new aspects of herself is a whole different story. Because the Doctor already has an identity that she’s happy with, and so opening the watch could potentially change that identity, and change how she views herself. And I find that particularly moving because, the way I think about it, seeking information, and finding it, and actually engaging with it, are two completely different things. It’s kinda like a, “be careful what you wish for,” right? Because if someone wants to know something – it’s kind of like info hazards, right? If the knowledge can change how you view yourself, and how you view your own history, it can be a really big change. And also, it’s not even unprecedented in Doctor Who, because if you think about Human Nature and Family of Blood, the first time we see the Chameleon Arch with the Tenth Doctor, John Smith really doesn’t want to open the chameleon arch, because once he does his identity completely disappears and he just becomes the Doctor.

Talia Franks: So I think there might be some part of the Doctor that might have that fear, that if she opens the fob watch, her identity as the Doctor might be subsumed by these past lives that she’s lived, cause she doesn’t know how many there are. Like she says “Were there hundreds? Were there thousands?”

Talia Franks: Like, the weight of those lives could overwhelm her and change her to be a different person.

Talia Franks: And also, another bone to pick with people on Twitter, I’ve seen people say that it doesn’t make sense for the memories to be in the fob watch and for her to still have some of them be buried.

Talia Franks: That’s bullshit because again, Human Nature, Family of Blood, John Smith still had all those dreams about the Doctor that he filled that little notebook with. He still has some of those memories that were latent in his mind. So, people just don’t be remembering this episode. Anyway … yeah.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. And that is such an excellent sort of – the idea of the memories bleeding through, right?

Lucia Kelly: I talked about this last episode, I adore how they’ve meshed the sci-fi elements with the metaphor – like, the way that this storyline is halfway between metaphor and reality in terms of the way that it’s addressing both an adoption narrative and also an abusive childhood narrative? It’s just everything to me. I love everything about it.

Lucia Kelly: And this idea of latent memories that have been locked away or hidden, for your benefit, in the same way that the brain shuts out memories that could be harmful or painful to you, in order to survive, but that the impact of those memories and the impact of your experience still very much lives within you and you can have access to those memories, either when the brain accepts that you are strong enough to accept them, or in states of unconsciousness ,like dreaming, the way that they’ve meshed that together is excellent.

Lucia Kelly: I do have – and I think this is coming as someone who does have memory issues a bit.

Lucia Kelly: I find your point about, ‘would the person we know as the Doctor even be the Doctor anymore if they could remember everything and that changed them as a person,” interesting, because if I had access to my memories, like very key memories that have been taken from me, I would want them in a heartbeat.

Lucia Kelly: And I guess that’s why last episode I was so on the fence about the way the episode ended and why I had this desire for the Doctor to open the watch anyway, that this idea of I don’t know – I guess from my perspective, it’s not so much the knowledge of the memories or the access to the memories, but how you process them and how you view them.

Lucia Kelly: So, you can look on your past and see where you’ve come from and differentiate yourself from that person? And, I think – there are many things in the timeless children arc that I personally relate to, and I find it much more difficult to separate myself from it as a fiction.

Talia Franks: So, I do get that. I have a very different perspective. Mostly because so, so it’s interesting, right? Because for one thing, I also have a lot of memory issues. So, okay. So, one thing that’s interesting about it is that it’s very different from real life, because the Doctor didn’t lock those memories away because of trauma. Those memories were taken from her.

Talia Franks: So, that wasn’t something that her brain chose to do to protect itself. That was something that was stolen. That wasn’t a choice made by her. That was a choice made by someone else. That was her autonomy being taken away. So that’s one sense in which it’s different.

Talia Franks: But at the same time, the reason that I identify with her choosing not to take the memories is because I also have PTSD from some like, bad shit that happened. And I have intentionally forgotten a lot of things. And I do not want those memories back. I don’t remember exactly everything that happened, but I know it was bad and I don’t want to remember it.

Talia Franks: Those memories are intentionally gone. Intentionally locked away. I want none of it, like I know some of the big details of what happened and that’s enough. I don’t want anything else. And so that’s enough for me, so I very much identify with not wanting anything to do with it. (Transition wobbles)

Lucia Kelly: Hmm, I also want to say I did hear actually from multiple perspectives, which made me just – I was talking to you about this earlier, but I’ve heard from several different people who talk about Doctor Who, and were reviewing it in podcasts, articles, the like, who questioned – (Lucia sighs)

Lucia Kelly: Basically, the bottom line of their point was that like, if the Doctor can’t remember it, it can’t affect them, so what’s the point? Like, you can’t have trauma from something that you can’t remember. And I’m here to tell you, (Lucia starts laughing with incredulity) as someone with trauma that I can’t remember, and as someone who has deep knowledge of abuse and trauma and how that works on the human brain, memories you can’t remember absolutely affect you, and recommended reading for everyone who is listening to this is “The Body Keeps the Score.”

Lucia Kelly: Look it up. Read it right now. People with memory problems, specifically due to abuse or trauma, are absolutely affected by the abuse of trauma they can’t remember. Please don’t think that.

Talia Franks: Yeah, no, there is a bunch of things that trigger me and I have traumatic responses to you. And I’m like, “I don’t know why this is a trigger, but it’s really bad, probably because of something I can’t remember.”

Lucia Kelly: Mhmm. Mhmm.

Lucia Kelly: I’m definitely going to put that link in the show notes as well. Please, just – Even if you read the summary, like the body keeps the score, even if you personally can’t remember something, your body does, please believe people when they say that they have trauma, even if they can’t remember it. (Lucia laughs again) PSA over.

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Lucia Kelly: Alright. Now that we’ve got all the heavy shit out of the way. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Let’s talk about genocide. (Lucia bursts out laughing)

Lucia Kelly: Sure thing Talia! What do you want to bring up first?

Talia Franks: Well, I want to bring up the fact that for some reason, and you mentioned this last episode and it’s been marinating in my brain that the Doctor, the, it seems out of character for you, the Doctor to kill the Sontarans, and the Daleks, and the Cybermen, and not have more deliberations about the consequences of committing genocide against them.

Talia Franks: That doesn’t make sense to me. I feel like the Doctor can be very cold-blooded. The Doctor is absolutely capable of that. Cause so the thing is, I know, (Talia sighs) so I’ve had like several days to think about this since we recorded. And so I basically went through and thought about all the times I could remember.

Talia Franks: And so like talking about Parting of the Ways the Doctor like absolutely was willing to kill the Daleks, he only didn’t do it because he wanted to save the humans. He was fine when Rose killed all of them. He was just upset that Rose like was going too far and bringing like Jack back to life and had absorbed the time vortex and was basically like, he thought she was going too far with all that. Journey’s End, Ten Two killed all the Daleks. And Ten Two was the Doctor, like he had all the Doctors like faculties. Yes, main Ten got all high and mighty about it.

Talia Franks: But like, Doomsday Tenth Doctor chucked all the Daleks and the Cybermen into the void. And also, again, family of Blood, Human Nature, like Doctor cold-blooded chained up a guy to I forget exactly what it was, but he liked chained up a guy into like live in the heart of a storm or whatever.

Talia Franks: He like trapped a little girl in a mirror forever. He like,

Lucia Kelly: He, he trapped, he trapped the form that had taken the body and shape of a little girl

Talia Franks: Yeah

Lucia Kelly: that was just the shape. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Um, He like trapped another form into as a scarecrow until the end of time or whatever. Like he, he can be like, and so it’s all if all the male doctors can be like this, like why is it that people are so upset about the woman Doctor also being like this?

Talia Franks: Anyway, I’m just saying the Doctor can be, cold-blooded just think about a Good Man Goes to War and how he blew up all those cyber ships just to make a point. That he wanted to know where Amy was. Just so that Rory could be dramatic. (Talia gasps a laugh) Anyway.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, I’m not, I’m not arguing. Okay. So I want to, I want to clarify, first of all, this is going to be, the rare instance might be once in a lifetime where I actually don’t think misogyny is at play here.

Lucia Kelly: What I specifically had an issue with was the fact that the narrative seemed to be taking this action so lightly. I completely agree with you, and I appreciate that you brought sources. (Lucia laughs while saying umq)

Lucia Kelly: The Doctor can absolutely be, be just, ice cold, and perform horrendous acts and really sadistic and very there’s a, there’s a craftsmanship to it almost. In some cases, the Doctor knows how to be cruel. I’m not arguing that the Doctor, especially, especially in NuWho, has 100% been set up as a morally grey character with both extreme, good and extreme bad parts.

Lucia Kelly: What I had an issue with specifically was the fact that there was no sense of…

Lucia Kelly: So in all the instances that you’ve brought up Parting of the Ways, Journey’s End, Human Nature, and Family of Blood, Doomsday, Good Man Goes to War, in all of those instances, the fact that like the Doctor is in the wrong here, the Doctor is doing something that could be, that is objectively horrible, like regardless of who they’re doing it against.

Lucia Kelly: Right. Like we all know the depths of evil that Cybermen and Daleks and everyone else can perpetuate. That committing mass genocide, the act, is a bad thing and that the Doctor is committing it with that knowledge. The issue I had was that none of I didn’t feel any of that in the finale. I didn’t feel like which was doubly bizarre because there are attempts made.

Lucia Kelly: I don’t believe that they were successful, but there are attempts made to impress upon the audience that genocide against the Lupari is a bad thing. Right? That that’s a tragedy that that is something to be mourned and to be a acknowledged.

Lucia Kelly: And then they just like flip it right over and do the whole, eye for an eye revenge thing where it’s well, then I’ll commit genocide against you!

Lucia Kelly: And it, and it comes right back to a point that Swarm makes actually where it’s yeah, stop committing murder. Or we’ll all like, we’ll murder you.

Talia Franks: Yeah. But actually that makes a lot of sense to me. And so this is going to sound weird, but I feel like it’s examined in the way that it’s not examined. If that makes sense?

Lucia Kelly: Hmm?

Talia Franks: Like, So the Doctor, if you think about how the Doctor has that moment with Time, where Time says, be wary of the forces that mass against you. And if you think about how the Doctor has just become at this point, like so powerful it feels like at this point, the Doctor is is almost unstoppable and is sort of heading towards a reckoning. And it is unexamined. If you think about how Swarm is like, oh, that’s hypocritical. Like you tell us to stop killing your we’ll kill you. Think about how Tecteun says, like they’re your experiments just as you were mine, and the doctor says, no, we’re not the same.

Talia Franks: Every time, these villains are trying to make points at the Doctor that are not correct, but not necessarily incorrect. And the Doctor is just denying, denying. Yet we’re seeing in like the narrative, if we have a keen eye that like they are in fact kind of making points. So I have to wonder if the way that we’re supposed to be examining this is that the Doctor is almost again losing sight in not being held accountable.

Talia Franks: Because it also has to do with the fact that the way in which this Doctor engages with companions is by being very secretive and by not letting companions in up until this like very last scene with Yaz that Dan interrupts. But if we think about how this Doctor is so closed off and so unable to be held accountable, like this Doctor definitely is heading for reckoning because there’s that moment again where she says like this isn’t actually a flat team structure, it’s mountainous with me at the top. So again, I feel like the reason it’s unexamined is because we’re heading towards it all like cumulating.

Lucia Kelly: As long as they don’t do the Time Lord Victorious shit again. I’m not, I’m not, I’m not, that was bad enough the first time round I’m not doing don’t do that. Like I, I think the Thirteenth Doctor is definitely in line for a reckoning. I hope that it, I just want it to be done well, is my, is my thing. I feel it’s, it’s been over a decade now, which is wild to think about, but it’s been over a decade and I’m still mad at how they ended Ten’s run. Cause it did not make sense for the character.

Lucia Kelly: I mean, it made sense for the character, but like it was, and we’ll sort of. We’ll see if my opinion has changed once we get to it. But like I remember in that moment while I was watching in the several moments, watching the specials and watching the decline of Ten, how that felt in my, in my soul, how that was such a betrayal of the character that had been set up.

Lucia Kelly: And I just, I don’t want that for Thirteen. I’m hoping for some, some better constructed narrative.

Talia Franks: Yeah. It’s really interesting to think about Ten, because if you think about how Ten was only Ten for, if you believe the Doctor was always lying about their age for about eight years.

Lucia Kelly: Hmm. I’d never liked how like suddenly Eleven was a thousand or however many years old.

Lucia Kelly: Like it just never felt true or real and

Talia Franks: Yeah

Lucia Kelly: felt unearned. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Definitely did feel, I mean, I think it made sense for Eleven to age that much, because he was cause Eleven aged the 200 years that he was running away from his death. It does make sense for the Doctor to run away from his death for 200 years. And then when he aged the thousand years, I think that was just to justify him getting that old because the Doctors (Lucia laughs) stay young for like ever.

Talia Franks: So they needed a reason to justify the Doctor, actually aging,

Lucia Kelly: We’re getting off topic. We’ll get that when we get there. But I have, there are so many problems that I have with Eleven. Anyway. Now I think we actually have covered all of the terrible deep angsty stuff. Do you want to talk about something more fun?

Talia Franks: Sure. (Transition wobbles)

Talia Franks: I love the Doctor’s consistency in wanting to run a shop. I think it would be so cute if the Doctor could run a little shop.

Lucia Kelly: I was thinking it would have made so much, I guess, basically I want scenes where we see Twelve working part-time at the uni uni bookshop. Is what I’m is what I’m wanting, (Talia laughs) you know, he did it, you know, he finagled at least one shift, (Talia continues laughing) you know, he managed it.

Talia Franks: Yeah, definitely.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no, they’re all a lot of, (Lucia sighs)

Talia Franks: Okay. One other thing, Bel and Vinder’s faces when they finally reunite like Vinder’s face, when he finds out that they’re having a baby, I rewound that and rewatched (Lucia laughs) it like five times because Jacob Anderson like his, the way his eyes lit up that little smile, like I adore it. Like I was worried when they were apart for so long, whether or not those two actors, Thaddea Graham, and Jacob Anderson would actually have chemistry together because they were star-crossed lovers.

Talia Franks: They never actually interact. (Talia laughs) But when they finally did get together, I was like, oh, they’re so cute. They’re so freaking cute. (Talia contiues to laugh)

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. I’m going to tell my statement, actually,

Talia Franks: What’s your statement? Tell me your statement. Now I’m curious. (Talia lets out a breath of anticipation)

Lucia Kelly: I think both Vinder and Bel were very cute individually. I did not buy into their chemistry very much, which was really unfortunate because I wanted to so bad.

Lucia Kelly: I like, they definitely gave the impression of they could build that chemistry though. Like I can see it. I can see, I see the vision. It’s just out of focus.

Talia Franks: You’re a hater. (Transition wobbles) (Lucia laughs)

Lucia Kelly:  I promised we do this last episode, and now we’re nearly at the end of this one, we need to give swarm and Azure their time. Let’s talk about these villains.

Lucia Kelly: They are such interesting villains. I really liked them.

Talia Franks: I really liked them too. And I feel, and you know, I’ve seen some people say that they were defeated too quickly or that they didn’t get their due diligence, but I don’t feel like that’s true. I feel like their end made sense.

Lucia Kelly: I feel like the end will make more sense once we find out who, you know, so are we meant to believe that their master like their savior, whatever, whatever was Time

Talia Franks: Yes.

Lucia Kelly: Or was it a third party?

Talia Franks: It was

Lucia Kelly: So it was time. Okay. Yeah. I feel like (Lucia makes a quiet noise of not-quite frustration) there was definitely more space to explore with them. And I feel like that wasn’t like, there are so many unanswered questions about the Ravagers. Also the fact that like they’re called the Ravagers and there’s a very like big, Big Finish.

Lucia Kelly: All about the Ravagers and they don’t seem to be the same kind of people, which was a bit very confusing to me personally. Their whole look, absolutely gorgeous, served every single scene that we’re in. I adored their relationship with the idea of space and religion.

Talia Franks: Yeah. I thought that was so great. Especially because Azure has that moment where she says “that is your faith. Ours is true.” Because find the idea of of someone’s faith being true, fascinating.

Talia Franks: Because like personally I’m like. Like personally, I’m a polytheist who believes that there’s validity in all faiths, (Talia laughs while saying um) like this weirds people out. When I say that, I think that all the gods exist, but you know, (Talia laughs while saying um) whatever. Anyway, I also think that the idea of there being balance to the universe is interesting because

Lucia Kelly: well the Doctor says that there’s a balance to the universe.

Talia Franks: Yeah that’s what the Doctor says.

Talia Franks: I find the Doctor’s view that there’s balance to the universe interesting. Because whenever, like someone in a story says that there needs to be balanced to the universe, that reads to me because when someone says there needs to be balance, that means that there needs to be good things and bad things. Because a scale has to be even.

Lucia Kelly: Hmm.

Talia Franks: So, like, I feel like if someone says that there needs to be balance, that means that they can’t be like on the side of like net good, because they believe in the necessity of evil.

Lucia Kelly: I find that take fascinating because I read that interaction between Azure and the Doctor completely differently.

Lucia Kelly: When the Doctor was saying, there must always be balance. And Azure is sort of advocating for her view of the world, her true faith view of the world as this idea of hedonism and excessiveism, specifically in this sort of not only worship of her idea of time, but her idea of destruction and her idea of death.

Lucia Kelly: The fact that the Doctor’s response is there must always be balance to me, red as the Doctor fighting for the idea of, in the face of a person, like Azure, the importance of fighting back for your own opinions and your own faith in goodness or life or success, or you know, you know, you know, back to Bel, you know, the mission is love, right? The mission is not, it’s not about the end goal being balance. The, the end goal, the mission is seeing all these competing different forces and making sure that your voice, your mission is heard and seen and accounted for.

Talia Franks: Yeah, so, that makes sense. And I think, but I think isn’t disagreeing from what I’m saying, which is that the doctor in believing in balance. Also, so I’m not saying, so I guess what I said before is that she believes in the necessity of evil, which is not true, but she believes in the inevitability of evil and destruction and thus the necessity for balance in the universe. So there will always be destruction so there were always be people fighting against destruction, so if what she fears most is destruction. And so she’s always trying to fight against. But she, but she doesn’t truly believe she either doesn’t truly believe that it can be destroyed or she doesn’t, or perhaps I dunno if she truly wishes for it to be destroyed because if balance ‘ cause w without balance, what is there cause everything, I don’t know. I go back to that where like, everything has its time and everything ends. Like it’s like everything is gone eventually. So it’s like, I wonder about.

Talia Franks: I also wonder about the Twelfth Doctor’s like how he doesn’t want to regenerate and how he had to be like forced regenerate to Thirteen. And it really makes me wonder, like we said, Thirteen is coming for a reckoning, so it makes me wonder what’s going to cause her to regenerate. Because again, Time says no regenerations.

Talia Franks: So I’m wondering how that’s going to happen.

Lucia Kelly: Yes, no, it’s all very fascinating that, that last confrontation with Time or conversation, however you want to sort of, it wasn’t exactly a confrontation, but Time, also the fact that Time is like an entity that can talk to people like okay. (Lucia laughs) But Time gives this warning to the Doctor and yeah, I mean, obviously we know from an external point of view that there will be another Doctor, so who knows what’s going to happen next?

Lucia Kelly: I also find it fascinating again, as you say, everything has its time and everything ends. I was absolutely like school reunion was so at the forefront of my mind watching this and specifically because Tecteun says something like almost identical to that at some point,

Talia Franks: Mhmm

Lucia Kelly: and I’m just fascinated by the concept of. I’m fascinated by the idea that the everything has its time. Everything ends philosophy is something that maybe came from Tecteun in a latent way that the Doctor still believed. And now this sort of fight against destruction philosophy that the Doctor seems to be more aligned with now might be their sort of more true alignment and more true philosophy to them rather than what has been sort of enforced on them by Tecteun.

Lucia Kelly: But yeah, no many different, many different paths, many different stories, many different ways that this whole thing could go.

Talia Franks: Yeah, I remember. So, I’m just thinking about the different ways that the different Doctors have regenerated

Talia Franks: And there’s this, and again, there’s this idea that the next Doctor will be shaped how the last Doctor regenerated. And one of the things that the Twelfth Doctor says when he’s about to regenerate is they’ll all get it wrong without me.

Lucia Kelly: Oh boy! (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: So he’s like saying like, and it’s this idea that the Doctor is necessary to the universe. And also this idea, one of the in then also some of the other things he says is again, the never be cruel, never be cowardly. Like hate is always foolish. Love is always wise. Always try to be nice, but never fail to be kind.

Lucia Kelly: Oh my gosh. I’ve just had the thought. Do you think the Doctor writes letters or notes to future generations of themselves

Talia Franks: Maybe?

Lucia Kelly: Oh, no, I’ve made myself very sad. (Lucia laughs)

Lucia Kelly: Oh no, hang on. I’ve suddenly been put on this sidetrack of this idea of the Doctor as this sort of incredibly concentrated generational line. Like the idea of there’s this reoccurring concept of the Doctor as yes, the Doctor is always the same character, but each regeneration is a different person. Like the, they are so different from, or they’re meant to be so different from each other that they are essentially both the same and different people all at once and how that, and even the uh, even the terminology regeneration brings to mind the idea of a family tree

Talia Franks: mhmm

Lucia Kelly: and like descendants

Talia Franks: mhmm

Lucia Kelly: and like. I dunno, the idea of the Doctor as a person and a family really got to me. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: I

Lucia Kelly: with like a shared history that’s passed down like literally.

Talia Franks: Yeah. It makes me wonder too about this idea of people having, having Doctors that are like their Doctor because it’s if Doctors are like members of a family and it’s I dunno, I’m just sort of thinking about this idea of like, family and community and like how, how that interacts in terms of like intergenerationally. Yeah. I don’t know. I can’t wait until we get to Capaldi cause he’s my Doctor. It’s. It’s so weird. Cause I dislike Moffat so intensely, but I love Twelve so intensely.

Talia Franks: I think I’ve told you I’ve got my my like signed Capaldi photo, like right above my desk. So whenever I’m working, I just see it’s it’s the quote from regeneration speech. It says “To Talia, LAUGH HARD, RUN FAST, BE KIND.. Best Peter Capaldi. Dr. Question mark. Question mark. And it’s a picture of the Twelfth Doctor And Bill which is my one of my favorite Doctor companion combinations, but yeah, I love Twelve so much.

Talia Franks: I can’t wait until we get to him. It’s literally yeah, I love Thirteen. Thirteen is like probably I think Thirteen and Twelve are honestly tied for my favorite doctor and then Nine, Eleven, Ten dead last for the modern Doctors.

Talia Franks: And then I love, I love the Ruth Doctor/ Fugitive Doctor, but I feel like. We just haven’t seen enough of her for me to properly rank her

Lucia Kelly: Give Jo Martin her own series! (Emphasized with claps)

Talia Franks: Yeah. Like at least give her a Big Finish. Like at the very least she needs a Big Finish. Like

Lucia Kelly: Give us the big Finish of how she and Karvanista met.

Lucia Kelly: And on that note, dear sweet listeners. Thank you for joining us. It has been, it has been a pleasure in a very wibbly, wobbly timey wimey way. We have given you a very, not mini minisode. We hope you enjoyed.

Talia Franks: Wait, wait one more thing. I never explicitly said it, but I do think that Flux deserves a fabulous. You set it at the top.

Talia Franks: I’m saying you at the bottom, we’re sandwiching it. This is a fabulous series. I already pre-ordered the DVDs, (Lucia laughs)

Lucia Kelly: Special features, special features! (Talia laughs)

Talia Franks: Cannot wait. (Lucia laughs) All right,

Lucia Kelly: We’ll see you next time for Christmas Invasion. Weeee!

Talia Franks: Weeee! Yeah, it should be coming out next week from when this episode is released.

Talia Franks: Bye-bye

Lucia Kelly: Bye!

Lucia Kelly: Thank you for listening to the Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Podcast.

Talia Franks: We hope you enjoyed this adventure with us through space and time.

Lucia Kelly: You can find us elsewhere on the internet on Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram @WibblyPod. Follow us for more Wibbly Wobbly content.

Talia Franks: You can find out more information about us and our content on wibblywobblytimeywimey.net and full transcripts for episodes at wibblywobblytimeywimey.net/transcripts

Lucia Kelly: If you’d like to get in touch with us, you can send us email at wibblywobblytimeywimeypod@gmail.com.

Talia Franks: Please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and other platforms as it helps other people find us and our content.

Lucia Kelly: That’s all for now, catch you in the Time Vortex!