It’s 2022 and Lucia and Talia are back with another not-so-mini minisode covering Eve of the Daleks! We discuss the delights of Thasmin, the aftermath of Flux, consistent representation of marginalized characters, and touch on the different ways the showrunners of NuWho have handled race. Next week we’ll continue with our regularly scheduled episodes of season two and NEW EARTH!
Talia’s article on last year’s New Year’s special feat. commentary on color blind casting: Doctor Who Continues to Inflict Violence on Black Characters (Nerdist)
Nicole Hill’s article on Doctor Who and Color Blind casting: Doctor Who and The Complications of Color-Blind Casting (Den of Geek)
Talia Franks: Hello and welcome to the Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey podcast!
Lucia Kelly: I’m Lucia Kelly, expert at applied analysis, and I’m working tonight because I had to keep on stupid Jeff at this stupid place, that I inherited from your stupid uncle. Obviously, no offense, God rest his soul.
Talia Franks: And I’m Talia Franks, media critic, fanfic enthusiast, and good-hearted weirdo.
Lucia Kelly: And we’re here today for Wibbly Wobbly Minisode!
Lucia Kelly: Hopefully, please, God, please. (Lucia laughs) Hopefully it will actually be mini this time.
Talia Franks: Ah, might be not so mini.
Lucia Kelly: Ah! (Talia laughs)
Talia Franks: Today, we’ll be talking about Eve of the Daleks, which aired on January 1st, 2022.
Talia Franks: (Talia sings) I don’t know about you, but I’m feeling 22.
Talia Franks: New Year’s Day! It was written by Chris Chibnall and directed by Annetta Laufer.
Lucia Kelly: Reminder that time isn’t a straight line. It can twist into any shape and as such, this is a fully spoiled podcast. We might bring things in from later in the show, the comics, the books, the audio dramas, or even fan theories and articles.
Talia Franks: With that out of the way, we need to formulate a plan which guarantees we make it out before the loop closes. So let’s get in the TARDIS!
Lucia Kelly: IMDB says, this is the episode where Sarah owns and runs ELF storage and Nick is a customer who visits his unit every year on New Year’s Eve. This year, however, their night turns out to be a little different than planned.
Talia Franks: Our synopsis says, this is the one where Dan assigns himself conductor of the Thasmin train.
Talia Franks: Choo Choo!
Lucia Kelly: He really does, doesn’t he? God bless. He’s like (Lucia laughs) “I’ve had enough! I watched this woman pine for four years! I’m not doing it anymore!”
Talia Franks: Yeah. And notice he said four years, which lends credence to the fact that even though they arrived in 1901 and that first timestamp was 1904. By the time that they did all that traveling, it was 1905.
Lucia Kelly: It sure was. You cannot speed up steamers. It’s just, you can’t speed up raising the money for steamers. We’ve covered this already. Anyway, Dan, God bless. I – I was so ready. I was so ready to be like, finally at last, you know, he’s not gonna do anything wrong. He’s not going to mess up anything. He’s not going to tell any bad jokes. And then he outs Yasmin. And it’s like for what (Lucia groans)
Talia Franks: You mean when he tells the Doctor that she likes her?
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: I don’t know where I stand on that. It left a sour taste in my mouth, I appreciate that clearly the vibe was like we’re beyond that being an issue or a problem. And like, the Doctor’s take on gender and gender identity and sexuality is so far beyond that like,
Lucia Kelly: But it’s also like, like Yasmin says herself, “I hadn’t even told myself that.” Right? Like, this is very, very delicate and new and personal to her. And the fact that Dan was just like, “By the way,” like, I get he’s as frustrated as we are, I sympathize with the man, but also don’t do that.
Talia Franks: Yeah, don’t do that.
Lucia Kelly: Don’t do that.
Lucia Kelly: But! Everything else! Also, also, I think that that puts him sacrificing himself as the sort of decoy man, in a whole new light as well. Like he 100% is like, “if I’m not there, if I’m not there, they’ll have a moment,”
Talia Franks: Yeah, I like Dan just getting himself out of the way, recognizing he’s not needed.
Lucia Kelly: What was it? The inferior human.
Talia Franks: Yeah, the inferior human. And I love also that everyone was just ragging on Dan so much because he’s so unnecessary, but also Yaz does have that moment where she’s like, “Hey, no one’s allowed to pick on my mate, but me.”
Lucia Kelly: The Yasmin-Dan friendship means so much to me. They’re so… They’re tender in a very specific way, which means, constantly insulting each other, which just warms my heart.
Talia Franks: Yeah. It’s a great kind of friendship.
Talia Franks: I love how this episode is an isolated episode, but still wraps up a lot of what’s happening in Flux. And I told you, I told you that what went on with the Doctor messing up the Daleks and the Cybermen and the Sontarans wasn’t over. I told you that the Doctor was going to have a reckoning of that there was going to be consequences.
Talia Franks: And I was right. I was right. I feel so vindicated.
Lucia Kelly: I agreed with you! (Lucia laughs incredulously and Talia also starts laughing) Why are you yelling at me like this? I agreed with you.
Talia Franks: No, because I, no, because I, maybe it’s not you, but I feel like there was just so much pushback, maybe not from you, but like, from the general ether of people on the internet. There was so much haterade for the Doctor’s actions. Clearly there’s going to be a through line of consequences for the Doctor, like, the Doctor says, “my actions are catching up with me.” And—
Lucia Kelly: Which she then takes back at the end and I’m like, “Godammit!”
Talia Franks: No, but the thing is, it’s not the Doctor taking it back per se, it’s the Doctor retreating back into her shell. She was vulnerable for that moment. And now she’s taking back that vulnerability because it’s not necessary for her to be vulnerable anymore.
Talia Franks: She’s retreating from her trauma, which is a totally reasonable reaction.
Lucia Kelly: I know, but like, ugh. I do like that Yasmin, like the look that Yasmin gave – what I do like about the way that – even though I would personally prefer to have that moment and have it out in the open so that we can have a really clean last bit of Thasmin, basically like the Doctor and Yasmin just being on the same page, being open and cool with each other for the last of the specials, I fully understand why they’re doing it this way and that we probably won’t get a resolution until the very end because that’s how television works. And it’s also, as you say, how reactions to trauma and reactions to learning to be vulnerable in that way works as well.
Lucia Kelly: And I did also really like the direction and how Jodie was acting in this – or how Whittaker was acting in this episode – It’s very clear, just how out of control the Doctor feels, and she’s acting way out, in order to mask that, pretty unsuccessfully.
Talia Franks: Yeah. And I will say that this makes a lot of sense for the Doctor.
Talia Franks: Like this is definitely something that the Doctor would do. The Doctor is not someone who typically is this vulnerable with people, the Doctor is someone who’s often very closed off and has these moments of vulnerability. And then has these moments of going back in on themself again, like this is very typical for the Doctor, and so I’m not at all surprised that this is what has happened. And especially, especially in this episode, because there’s that moment when the Dalek first exterminates them and the Doctor doesn’t know that she’s going to make it out. And she says in just that soft moment. And I just love Whittaker’s acting here. There’s that soft moment where she just says, “Not like this,” because she’s come across the Daleks so many times, she’s fought them so many times, she’s gone through so many battles, and then she’s like, “Am I really going to die like this?” Like, “Is this really going to be it?”
Lucia Kelly: Not in ELF storage.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, but you know what it is.
Lucia Kelly: Do you know what I reckon it is? I’m still going through Eccleston withdrawal. I think that’s what it is because Eccleston, as a Doctor, of the modern Doctors was the most vulnerable and would absolutely have those moments far more often with Rose, than I think any other Doctor has, with any other companion.
Lucia Kelly: And I’m just like, Goddammit Doctor, get yourself together, like have a moment. And that’s just not, that’s not where the Doctor is on their journey anymore. And it’s I miss Eccleston. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: Yeah. I think it very much is the consequence of you not watching these episodes in sequential order. I think you need to watch all these episodes in the correct order. But also I think, I think it’s also a mark of the fact that the Doctor is someone who isn’t going to be particularly open and isn’t going to be all like touchy, feely open with her emotions. And I feel like there is a bias and a want for her to do that. And there’s always been a want for the Doctor to be more open with their emotions.
Talia Franks: To a certain extent that is even more heightened now that we have a woman Doctor, and all of us need to acknowledge that bias. Even those of us who feel like we don’t have that bias still probably have that underlying bias. Even if we say we don’t.
Lucia Kelly: It’s the most dangerous kind, the bias you don’t think you have.
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Talia Franks: I also was thinking about circling back to this idea of wrapping up Flux.
Talia Franks: This is still very new. And by this, I mean the companionship between the Doctor and Dan is very new because he says “You saved the world last week.” Which means there’s only been a week of Dan being a companion on the TARDIS. And Dan was barely a companion before. He was an companion for like, a few hours (Talia laughs) before he and Yaz got yanked back to the early 1900s.
Talia Franks: So the whole reason he’s on the Tardis is because he and Yaz have that bond. I maintained the only reason he’s a companion is because Yaz is like, “That’s my friend. We’re bringing him.” And so the Doctor is still early on in her friendship with Dan. So the fact that she has that, “I don’t know what you’re talking about,” when he’s trying to have a heart to heart with her makes total sense, because like, why is she going to open up to this dude she’s known for a week? You know?
Talia Franks: And, I think also probably what they’ve been doing in that week is cleaning up after the Flux, because just to also make a quick note, cause I know that this is something that I’ve seen some discourse about, and I don’t really remember if we talked about it specifically. But my personal theory of how they reset the universe is because – Every Christmas/New Year’s time, BBC America does a full marathon of all of Doctor Who for like days and days, 24 hours long, Doctor Who marathon. and I didn’t watch the whole marathon, but when I turned it on, they were replaying Flux. Right when I turned it on, it was during Azure’s little religion speech, and she said that they were going to undo and redo the Flux as their sort of game.
Talia Franks: And I’m like, “Oh, that means the Flux is undoable.” It’s possible to reset the universe. And so my theory is that the Doctor just went and did what they were going to do and reset the Flux. Because it seems entirely possible for me if the Ravagers were going to do it, the Doctor can figure it out.
Lucia Kelly: Hmm. Yeah.
Talia Franks: Like the Doctor can figure out how to undo the Flux and reset the universe given enough time. Like she didn’t have enough time when she killed all those Daleks, and Cybermen, and Sontarans, but clearly the Daleks are back, so she didn’t actually kill all of them. She killed a lot of them. She killed a giant fleet of them, but when she reset the universe, she obviously reset the Daleks and Cybermen, and the Sontarans, too, so that genocide that she committed was not actually, like she brought them all back. She brought everyone back.
Lucia Kelly: But I mean, then it wouldn’t make sense. I mean, it would because the Daleks want the Doctor dead anyway, but like if she brought them all back then – but yeah. Resetting the universe is an interesting tidbit, because I’m sorry, do Sarah and Nick not know what a Dalek is? At this point? That made no sense to me. We’ve had Journey’s End, we’ve had so many – We’ve had Doomsday! We’ve had so many moments. How do they not know what this thing is?
Talia Franks: You’re forgetting about the crack and time and space –
Lucia Kelly: The fucking crack! (Talia and Lucia laugh)
Talia Franks: – You’re forgetting about the crack in time and space, which ate up everyone’s memories of the Daleks and explicitly rewrote the fact that no one remembers the Daleks. Which is the whole point of Victory of the Daleks, is that no one remembers them, specifically Amy didn’t remember them.
Talia Franks: I think this is a good segue to talk about Sarah and Nick, which we definitely should do. So, I think one thing we definitely should talk about is Nick’s storage unit.
Lucia Kelly: Okay, yeah, let’s talk about this.
Talia Franks: Let’s talk about Nick’s storage unit, because it’s, it’s creepy.
Lucia Kelly: It’s a lot.
Talia Franks: It’s a lot. And I’ve been seeing some mixed reactions to it online. And honestly, I think this is a case of sloppy writing, because for me, when I saw it, I was like, “Oh. Here is someone who’s super neurodivergent, has hoarding tendencies, can’t get rid of stuff, has a lot of failed relationships, is probably feeling upset about those failed relationships, can’t bear to get rid of his exes’ stuff, but also can’t bear to look at it. Like, (Lucia hmms in agreement) for me, when I broke up with my ex, I’m like, Hmm, I don’t want to look at that, but also, I feel weird getting rid of it? Also because like, I’m autistic, and I definitely have a thing where I don’t like to get rid of things. I have a lot of sentimental attachment to physical objects. And so I really identified with Nick, not wanting to get rid of stuff.
Talia Franks: And when Sarah said “Just throw stuff away,” that was really triggering for me. And I was very upset. I super identified with Nick and also I super identified with when he finally had that moment where he’s like, “Okay, I’m over this. I don’t need this stuff anymore. I don’t need to be reminded my exes. I can just let the Dalek explode it all up. I’m fine with it all being gone.”
Talia Franks: That for me was the moment where I was like, “Okay, I can throw away all my ex’s stuff. I don’t need it anymore.” Like, I super identified with that. So then when I went online and I saw all these people who were like, Nick’s a creepy stalker,” “This is raising a huge red flag.”
Talia Franks: Like, “He’s reminding me of these terrible guys I’ve dated.” I was like, huh, that’s a completely different lens that I did not see at all.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. Okay. So first of all, Sarah and Nick should not get together at the end of this episode, but for entirely different reasons. Ummm. (Lucia laughs) Like it’s not – Nick – I entirely agree, like the neuro divergency that is just beaming out of this man, right? Like a big signal. But like –
Lucia Kelly: I adore Sarah, but I don’t think she’s a good person.
Lucia Kelly: Oh. I think that she’s a person with a very negative bias, which makes sense. Like the way that they wrote Sarah makes me so happy because so rarely, and this is a props to the writing and the actor as well, so rarely is a woman given the role to be just that much of an arsehole, and like, also in a way that is sympathetic.
Lucia Kelly: You totally understand exactly how she’s gotten to this point of just, “Fuck everyone. I hate the world. This is terrible.” That very particular negative and sort of outsized negative bias. Is very rarely given such – is allowed to be felt in its full force while still being recognizable as human and forgivable. And I feel like that same grace was not given to Nick in a very significant way. Which is really unfortunate, but also like they had not sorted out any of their issues. Like any of them really, in the evening that they spend together.
Lucia Kelly: And now they’re like, “I’m going to travel the world with you. Everything’s going to work out fine.” And I’m like, no,
Talia Franks: No,
Lucia Kelly: No,
Talia Franks: absolutely not. Especially when they said this is their first date is them getting killed together?
Lucia Kelly: RIGHT!?
Talia Franks: Like,
Lucia Kelly: Get a coffee first, mate. Get a, See if you can hold a conversation with each other without being threatened by Daleks.
Lucia Kelly: Oh my God.
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: Be friend— Like, figure out if you can be friends.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. And then there’s
Talia Franks: also like the fact of cause also the other people, the other thing that people were saying was stalker-ish was that he always like made a point to come on a specific day that he knew that she would be working, which for me, like I waffled back and forth on this because it’s like, like on the one hand that’s kind of weird.
Talia Franks: But on the other hand, like it’s not like he was harassing her at work. She didn’t even know that he liked her. Like, it was just someone who came in. To like visit his storage unit frequently. Like it’s just a customer who comes in frequently and like has like friendly greetings. Like she had no idea that he liked her. She had
Lucia Kelly: Yeah
Talia Franks: no idea which like And Nick, speaks of pining more than stalking. It’s not like he knew where she lived. It’s not like he knew her phone number. He didn’t know any, it’s not like he seems to know any significant details about her life.
Talia Franks: He just happens to know where she works.
Talia Franks: Like there are plenty of people who like run into someone or meet somewhere. Because they happen to know where they work.
Lucia Kelly: Hmm. Or even I’m thinking of, like, I like to go to certain coffee places on certain days. Cause I know, like I know a certain barista will be there and like I liked the way they make their coffee.
Lucia Kelly: Like once you start building a relationship with someone, once you start knowing someone like
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: Like that. And and Nick even makes that point in that moment when they’re having that discussion and she’s like “stalker much?” And he’s like, “well, no” and like, you know what? Yeah. He had points.
Talia Franks: Yeah. It’s like, for me, it’s like, I don’t, like you said, it really gave me the same vibes of like, when I was in college, And I went to the same Dunkin Donuts.
Talia Franks: So consistently that any time I walked up, they made my order for me before I actually was there. Like literally when I went to this Dunkin Donuts on my college campus, like anytime I walked up, they would already have my order ready for me to the point where one time I decided to order something different just for variety. And they were like, “that’s weird here.” Like, “here’s your order. You don’t have to pay for it. I already made it.” (Talia and Lucia laughs) I was like, okay.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no. Nick is fine. Sarah is fine, but they, they w they will not be fine together. I will tell you that.
Talia Franks: I said it in my livetweet, I did not buy into their chemistry. I feel like they trauma bonded.
Lucia Kelly: Oh yeah. It was giving me, it was giving me such massive, massive Speed vibes. Like, you know, the old Keanu movie? Like,
Talia Franks: I think I saw it once, like very, very many years ago. It has Keanu and Sandra Bullock?
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. And they literally have a conversation about how like “we’re trauma bonding right now. This isn’t a good idea.” And then it’s like nineties music swell. “It’s a good idea anyway, don’t worry about it.” Credits roll.
Talia Franks: Yeah. It, it, it, it, it makes me think of how in all of those like movies where like the couple gets together and then in the sequel the couple is broken up. It’s not, and like, people make people like sometimes make light of those movies and be like, “oh it’s so trite how in the sequel the couple is just breaking up and getting back together again. And that’s so ridiculous that the plot of the sequel also has romance troubles” and it’s like, no, it makes sense. Because the only reason they got together in the first movie was because of trauma. The second movie is them actually figuring out if they actually work.
Talia Franks: Like it makes sense that they’re broken up in the second movie, because the only reason they got together in the first movie was because of trauma. The second one is for them to figure out if they actually work as a couple.
Lucia Kelly: Also like, I’m sorry, but like, sorry to talk about your country in this way. But specifically American romcoms are like, I can’t watch them.
Lucia Kelly: They give me so much anxiety. They never love each other. They just shout and yell and do banter back and forth and tease (Talia laughs) and be mean to each other. And then they’re like, “we love each other actually.” (Lucia makes a kissing noise) I like
Talia Franks: do not, do not feel offended or think that I will feel offended about you hating on American romcoms, because I also hate American romcoms. They suck.
Lucia Kelly: I, This is not the model. This is not the model for love. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: I do like, certain romance novels, but most of the romance novels I like, are ones where the forces keeping the couple apart aren’t their love for each other, but like, outside forces. It’s like, I love the, I love the romance novels where they get together early in the book. And the reason that there’s conflict in the rest of the book is because of like outside issues. Like, I really like, like you never doubt in the book, the couple’s affection for each other.
Talia Franks: Like you never doubt that the couple are a good match. What you doubt is their ability to surmount obstacles against them. So that’s like, what I like in different romance novels is when, is when there’s outside conflict, that’s messing with the inner conflict of the couple.
Talia Franks: But this is no longer a minisode.
Lucia Kelly: So, now that we’ve had that, that, that tangent as is our wont, is there anything else we really want to cover?
Talia Franks: So the thing that I just want to give another another space for is the fact that the show again, it feels weird to say this, but it’s centering the death of a black character because the thing is, and this is, this is interesting to articulate because obviously everyone in the show keeps dying.
Talia Franks: Like it’s a time loop. And the, and the time loop restarts, whenever one dies. But the reason that I say that it centering the death of a black character is because Nick’s dying is in multiple scenes, like the central effect. Because he’s the first person who dies. And so his death is so the first time he dies, it’s like the instigating event.
Talia Franks: It’s the first thing that you see as a black man dying, which is triggering. And then there’s the time where he stops the Daleks from killing him. And no one believes that he’s able to do it himself. Well, not no one, but like he’s able to do it himself. And then he’s like very clever about it.
Talia Franks: And the Doctor’s like, oh, nice job. But Sarah was like, “no you didn’t” like, first of all, that’s a dick move. Then when everyone gets killed right away, you see, you see Sarah die first, but her death is like much more drawn out. Like all the other deaths are much more drawn out, but Nick just like gets killed like right away.
Talia Franks: And it’s, and then there’s the time where he sacrifices himself because he basically, like I said, Nick, just like, like you said, like he just exudes. It’s so much neurodivergency and he gets so overwhelmed. And he just can’t handle all of it. And so he goes and sacrifices and self he’s like “take me instead.”
Talia Franks: And so then he ends up being cut out of a lot of the discussion. He ends up getting cut out of a lot of the plan and cut out of a lot of the action. And so his screen time is even just reduced there. So he becomes in multiple cases, a kind of martyr.
Talia Franks: Even again, when we have that whole discussion about what they’re going to do, there’s a de-prioritization of Nick.
Talia Franks: Sarah wants to go save him. The Doctor’s like, no, stay here. And it’s like, Nick could be dying. Like, why is the Doctor? Like, it seems so unlike the Doctor to not want to save someone. And the Doctor like reluctantly goes to save Nick. And the only reason he’s saved is because he ends up saving himself. So it’s like,
Talia Franks: One, that seems really out of character for the Doctor. But two, it just like, at leaves a really icky feeling for me. And it’s a lot of it is because it’s a repeated pattern and it’s, it’s a repeated pattern and it’s the fact that there are so few Black people and people of color on the show. When you have a large amount of representation, when you have consistent representation, that’s when you can begin to put people of color and people from marginalized groups, into these categories of victims and of villains, and of constantly being put in these positions where they are further being marginalized within the show.
Talia Franks: When all of these people who are like surviving and thriving in the show, come from privileged groups and you have so few people who come from marginalized groups in the show at all, that’s when it becomes a problem that all of these people from marginalized groups are constantly being further marginalized within the show. When there’s a fuller schema of representation in the show as a whole, that’s when you can, that’s when you can fully put everyone in all of the roles.
Lucia Kelly: And I know we’ve discussed before. This is a problem throughout the show, but also specifically with Chris Chibnall the continual and specific sacrificing of Black people in a way that is like, it also struck me this episode, just how much Nick’s deaths are more violent? And are more… there’s more emphasis put on them than anyone else in the show.
Lucia Kelly: Like we are very, we are very deliberately using this Black man who is very clearly neurodivergent, as the core center of the violence. And that is a problem that has been like part of the show from inception. But specifically, I think it’s been specifically brought to light under Chris Chibnall’s stewardship of the show.
Talia Franks: I don’t know that that’s entirely fair to say. I think there was a lot of issues with this under RTD as well. I think Chris Chibnall definitely has a problem with color blind casting which is, color blind casting is the effect of writing characters like “without race,” which is basically writing every character basically writing every character as a white character.
Talia Franks: And then. Putting people of color into those roles without then accounting for how a shift in a shift in how they will be perceived. But that was also a problem in RTD’s run. That was a very big problem in RTD’s run. Think for instance of Midnight, where there’s the stewardess who sacrifices herself for everyone, and you never even know her name.
Talia Franks: That’s a Black woman. That’s a Black woman who dies, that’s a a Black woman in a service position who sacrifices herself for everyone on that ship. And attention is drawn to the fact that you never even know what her name was. And that hits a lot different when it’s a Black woman, then when it would be any other person, any other.
Talia Franks: Cause if you think about the specific position that black women hold in society, think about the fact that the only other person of color in that episode was also a Black woman, was also consistently marginalized had her accomplishments taken down. Wasn’t listened to. Was Dee Dee, I think her name was in that episode.
Talia Franks: And she was also constantly shut down. Her opinions were cut out by the Professor. The thing is I’ve only seen Midnight, I think once, maybe twice, because I hate that episode so much. And you can tell how much I remember it because those things stick in my brain because I disliked them so much.
Talia Franks: And so that is something that was definitely definitely a through line in RTDs run as well. Steven Moffatt didn’t do a great job with race either. Just look at Danny Pink, just look at Danny Pink’s treatment. Honestly, I could write an entire thesis on, on Danny Pink and his treatment and why it’s so racist, we’ll get there. and what he did to Bill like is I’m still caught up in my feels about that.
Talia Franks: But the fact is that Moffatt just cast slews and slews of white people.
Talia Franks: Anyway, the point is that none of these showrunners have ever done well with regard to race have ever done well with regard to race. I think particular attention is being drawn to Chibnall because he has made so much of an effort to include people of color in every one of his episodes that it’s more obvious when they are mistreated because he has made an effort, but even when he has made this effort, they are not they’re not always included the way that we want them to be.
Talia Franks: And I think that’s, I think that’s part of the double-edged sword is because there are many of us who want there to be better representation. And so we are advocating for better representation while at the same time, there are people who think that there is too much representation and that this era is “too woke.”
Talia Franks: And so there’s been a lot of pushback in that regard. And so really people are just coming at Chibnall from all sides in a way that is just makes it hard. It like,
Talia Franks: In a way I feel kind of bad for Chibnall because it makes it so that everything that he does is looked at with so much more scrutiny than I feel like people look at past eras of Doctor Who like RTD and Moffatt and I’m really interested to see how people are going to look at Chibnall’s era once he’s gone. And I think that once we have Chibnall’s era as a whole, it will be looked at with much more grace. Cause I feel like we give RTD and Moffatt a lot of grace that we don’t give Chibnall.
Lucia Kelly: I don’t give Moffatt any grace.
Lucia Kelly: I, (Lucia laughs) I can guarantee that. But um
Talia Franks: That’s fair. I’m I’m not saying we, I’m saying like the fandom as a collective, gives RTD and Moffatt a lot more grace than anyone ever gives Chibnall. Well not everyone, I know a lot of people who give Chibnall grace, but I think like, as, as like, as the collective fandom, I feel like often gives Chibnall a lot less grace than they give RTD and Moffatt not, maybe not Moffatt but certainly RTD gets a lot more grace.
Lucia Kelly: Yes. I will be fascinated to see once RTD I want to say comes back into power, but that feels too grand, but when RTD become showrunner again, I’ll be very interested to see sort of just how fast the rose colored glasses come off. Like once we actually have him making new content, whether that sort of nostalgic sort of almost a reactive defense of RTD, how long that will stay around. And and obviously there, there are going to be people on both ends of the spectrum who were never going to change their opinion. And I’m going to be, either diehard fans or diehard haters of any kind of showrunner, but I’ll be very interested to see how generally in the community, once we start getting this new content, how RTD will be perceived.
Talia Franks: Yeah. And it’s also interesting to think about, how, when RTD was show runner, the internet wasn’t as big of a place? Just thinking about like RTD stopped being showrunner in like what 2009? 2009 was like the last of the David Tennant specials and, and and so Steven Moffatt took over in 2010.
Talia Franks: And people were having very different conversations when RTD was showrunner.
Talia Franks: And so I think, I think as we see as we go forward we’ll, we’ll see a very different, people will see the show in a very different light. But this episode is not about RTD. It’s about Eve of the Daleks and it’s definitely no longer a minisode. (Talia laughs)
Lucia Kelly: So Talia, after this long and varied discussion, where do you come down on Eve of the Daleks? Is it funky? Fabulous? Or foul?.
Talia Franks: Fabulous. Definitely fabulous.
Lucia Kelly: Fabulous. Like I’m I really enjoyed it despite everything that we’ve said.
Talia Franks: Yeah! Yeah, no, I thought it was, I thought it was really great. I thought it was I thought it was I mean, like there is a few, a few things. I, a few things I had issue with, but otherwise I thought it was a pretty, a pretty solid episode. I thought they utilized the time loop pretty well. There were a few, there are a few small things that didn’t really make sense, but I don’t think they’re worth talking about we can, we can dive into them when we get to this episode in like five years.
Lucia Kelly: Yay!
Lucia Kelly: Yes, I’ve come down fabulous as well. Like the time loop was really well done, was a really great way to keep tension throughout the episode. It wasn’t too repetitive despite all that. The characters were all really well done and fleshed out. Both Sarah and Nick were fully realized three-dimensional people in a way that was great.
Talia Franks: Mhmm.
Lucia Kelly: We’ve already talked about our problems with Nick. We don’t need to go into that again. (Lucia laughs) And yeah, Dan, his firmly on the Thasmin train and it looks like we’re, we’re talking, the subtext is rapidly becoming text. I’m so happy. (Talia and Lucia laugh)
Talia Franks: The subtext appears to be… text. (Talia laughs) And I am here for it. I’m just, I’m just waiting for all the fanfic. Anticipating. I’m probably gonna write some of it. When I, when I, when I gear up to have the wherewithal. Things have been, things have been things lately. So, my writing has kind of come to a standstill, but. Eventually it’ll happen.
Lucia Kelly: But, fortunately, you, dear listener, will not have to wait until the next special to hear our lovely voices, because guess what?
Talia Franks: We’re in season two right now
Lucia Kelly: Wooo! Where we will have full episodes where we can go really deep into discussions. We, next episode, I think is going to be
Lucia Kelly: NEW EARTH!
Lucia Kelly: Yes!
Talia Franks: And you can hear us talk about Cassandra!
Lucia Kelly: At length. We have such a good conversation about that. So look forward to that. And we will see you next time. Yeah!
Talia Franks: Bye!
Lucia Kelly: Thank you for listening to the wibbly wobbly timey wimey podcast.
Talia Franks: We hope you enjoyed this adventure with us through space and time.
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Talia Franks: You can find out more information about us and our content on wibblywobblytimeywimey.net, and full transcripts for episodes at wibblywobblytimeywimey.net/transcripts.
Lucia Kelly: If you’d like to get in touch with us, you can send us email at email@example.com.
Talia Franks: Please rate and review us on Apple podcasts and other platforms as it helps other people find us and our content.
Lucia Kelly: That’s all for now, catch you in the time vortex!