In today’s episode we jump into the abyss and talk about some of our favorite episodes from series two—The Impossible Planet and The Satan Pit. We discuss the portrayals of religion and slavery, and actually have some nice things to say about Rose for once.
Talia Franks: Hello and welcome to the Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Podcast!
Lucia Kelly: I’m Lucia Kelly, expert at applied analysis and I am the sin and the fear and the darkness. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: And I’m Talia Franks, media critic, fanfic enthusiast, and I shall rise from the pit to make war against God. (Lucia laughs)
Lucia Kelly: And we’re here today to talk about The Impossible Planet and The Satan Pit, episodes eight and nine of series two of Doctor Who.
Talia Franks: The Impossible Planet and The Satan Pit aired on June 3rd, 2006 and June 10th, 2006, respectively. They were both written by Matt Jones and directed by James Strong.
Lucia Kelly: Reminder that time isn’t a straight line. It can twist to any shape and as such, this is a fully spoiled podcast. We might bring things in from later in the show, the comics, the books, the audio dramas, or even fan theories and articles.
Talia Franks: With that out of the way, we are the stuff of legend! So let’s get in the TARDIS!
Talia Franks: All right. Time for the IMDBs synopsis. (Talia and Lucia laugh)
Talia Franks: When the Doctor and Rose become stranded on a planet, orbiting a black hole, they find a human expedition crew and their servants, servants, (Talia sounds incredulous)
Lucia Kelly: Servants! (Lucia is sarcastic)
Talia Franks: the Ood being terrorized by the devil.
Lucia Kelly: In the next episode, the Doctor risks his life to investigate the pit and is forced to make a terrible decision while Rose and the crew fend for their lives against the Legion of the Beast.
Talia Franks: These episodes are the ones where the religion pops out and we introduce a slave race without examining it AT ALL!
Lucia Kelly: At all! It’s a slave race IMDB! Get outta here with those “servants”.
Talia Franks: Talia from the future interjecting to state for the record that “slave race” is an inaccurate term, people are enslaved, a verb, they are not slaves, a noun. Furthermore, using the term “race” to describe alien species is a problematic trope in science fiction, as we have discussed previously on the podcast.
Talia Franks: Ugh, The Ood make me so uncomfortable.
Lucia Kelly: Ugh, I was just saying before we started recording, I feel like I need to watch the episode where the Doctor and Donna go and like, we unpack the Ood, (Lucia claps) and what that actually means because this episode left me feeling so, so uncomfortable.
Talia Franks: So, so uncomfortable.
Talia Franks: And we’ll get there with Donna and the Doctor and the Ood. And the Ood, as a whole, even when they get, you know, their whole arc
Lucia Kelly: When they get revamped. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: Like it still, it still gives me, it gives me magical Negro vibes and I don’t like it.
Lucia Kelly: The fact that it’s like, It’s so weird how, because this is the episode that introduces the Ood, right? We’ve never seen them before. They’re a brand new alien. And it like, we like half get there? We like half examine it. We kind of do an incredibly surface level, like without going to any kind of, any kind of actual thinking about the implications of what that is.
Talia Franks: I just,
Lucia Kelly: It’s bizarre.
Talia Franks: I’m just so upset when the Doctor says at the end that he couldn’t go back and save the Ood because there wasn’t enough time. You have a fucking time machine!
Lucia Kelly: It’s a time machine! What do you mean there is not enough time?
Lucia Kelly: Get outta here!
Talia Franks: Get outta here!
Talia Franks: Take a walk.
Lucia Kelly: Take a walk.
Talia Franks: I did like that the Black guy lived.
Lucia Kelly: Mhmm.
Talia Franks: I didn’t like that the two guards didn’t have names, (Lucia mhmms) weren’t credited in the cast list and basically just existed to die.
Lucia Kelly: Oh yeah, no, that is, that’s classic red shirts right there. (Lucia laughs) They are there to die.
Talia Franks: And I didn’t like that one of them was a Black woman, especially.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no, it’s I feel kind of the same. Like I love the fact that , the Black guy that was like a proper role and proper character, and we connect with him and he’s a fully fledged character lives. I hate that that’s a bar that exists.
Talia Franks: Me too.
Lucia Kelly: I hate that we have that thought. I hate that that’s not guaranteed or at least not so much guaranteed, cause then we get into the whole thing of like… when we get into stereotypes against how minoritized people are treated in media, it sort of, can flip the other way, where people are too scared to, or don’t feel like it’s appropriate to do anything bad to any minoritized representation.
Lucia Kelly: And it’s not so much about what happens in the particular episode. It’s about the pattern that you create and it’s about the culture and the environment that you create in the show that you’re making. (Talia mhmms) So like, the key is to have your diverse writing room and a good solid base foundation (Talia mhmms) so that you can treat all your characters with equal sort of… delicacy.
Talia Franks: The thing is, I love so much about these two episodes and I would be able to unequivocably say that they’re fantastic… except for the Ood! (Talia and Lucia laugh) This is such a great, great set of episodes, and then you throw slavery into it and I’m like, “No, I can’t call this a great set of episodes.”
Lucia Kelly: Hmmm. I will say we get good Rose this episode.
Talia Franks: I was going to say, these were the only two episodes where I actually like Rose. (Lucia laughs)
Lucia Kelly: I love that Rose’s immediate reaction to the Ood is to unionize them. And to get them rights. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: Yeah. I do love that about Rose.
Lucia Kelly: It’s like, “What are they paying you? Do you get leave?” Like, what are your, “What’s the contract?” (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: And I do love where she was like, “I was a dinner lady once. Not that I’m calling you a lady. Though you might be.”
Lucia Kelly: It’s like, “Hmmm”
Talia Franks: And she’s just rolling with it. She’s like, “I can’t assume your gender!”
Lucia Kelly: Yeah! We’ve come so far. We’ve come so far. She’s really grown as a person. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: Yeah no, I actually really like Rose in these episodes. I mean the fact that she wants to stay behind with The Doctor is a little bit…
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: Yeah…
Lucia Kelly: Like that whole scene is a bit like, “Oh, we’re damseling Rose again.” Oh, here she is … back. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: Yeah. I do ultimately like the part where the Doctor is talking about how he would have to sacrifice Rose, but that implies that Rose is just a damsel and doesn’t have agency. He’s like, “If there’s one thing I believe in, I believe in her,” like, “I believe in her ability to make choices for herself and to not just be a passive person.” So I did actually really appreciate that.
Lucia Kelly: I mean that whole final scene is so, so good. I love that entire monologue that the Doctor gets.
Lucia Kelly: But it does sort of highlight this weird position we have with Rose where the narrative is telling us one thing, but the actual text is telling us a different thing.
Talia Franks: Mhmm.
Lucia Kelly: Where the narrative, right, is that Rose is this strong, powerful, girlboss, strong female character. Whereas what we actually get in the text is a far more simplified, and black and white, and very male gaze-y character that fits into whatever is needed for the male characters.
Talia Franks: Mhmm.
Lucia Kelly: In whatever episode it is. So Rose is this kind of One Size Fits All character.
Talia Franks: I do like how she gets rid of the Beast/Toby/Satan at the end.
Talia Franks: Although, I do have to say that the science doesn’t make a lot of sense because I feel like if she breaches the hull they would all die.
Lucia Kelly: Exactly.
Talia Franks: The seatbelt doesn’t seem like it would help that much. Like what are those seatbelts made out of?
Lucia Kelly: Right? Like, I hope that Zach and Denny sent a very positive review to the seatbelt manufacturers being like “These, these seatbelts (Lucia starts laughing while speaking) work against the vacuum of space! Saved my life! Would recommend! 10 out of 10.”
Talia Franks: Okay. Speaking of the science,
Lucia Kelly: Mhmm
Talia Franks: can we talk about orbiting black holes?
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, sure.
Talia Franks: Because the thing is, it’s possible to orbit a black hole.
Talia Franks: I looked this up, because, I took an astronomy class in college and when I was in that astronomy class, we learned that it was possible to orbit black holes. So I was very confused (Talia laughs quickly) when I was watching this episode. Not this time, but cause I told you I did a rewatch the, of these episodes a few months ago.
Talia Franks: And so when I was rewatching this episode a few months ago, I was like, huh, wait a minute. I definitely learned in my astronomy class that it’s possible to orbit black holes. So I looked this up and apparently the study in which they established that it’s possible to orbit black holes didn’t come out until 2017.
Talia Franks: So, I feel like we should give them a pass on not knowing that you could orbit a black hole.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, absolutely.
Talia Franks: However, technically the science is bad and doesn’t make sense. Because it’s possible to orbit black hole.
Talia Franks: Just wanted to say, (Talia laughs quickly and Lucia hmmms) just putting that out there, that it is possible to orbit a black hole. You would not necessarily get sucked right in.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no, the, (Lucia sighs) I actually don’t have a problem with the big science of orbiting a black hole, gravity tunnel, all that kind of nonsense. Cause the thing is this episode in particular, is very explicitly dealing with um, the idea of religion and faith and belief and the mix of what is powered by quote unquote “science” and what is powered by quote unquote “belief,” right?
Lucia Kelly: So the entire thing is set up as “How does this work? We don’t know. It’s up in the air! That’s why all these scientists are there! Because it doesn’t make sense!” Right? So, the entire episode is set up to not make sense, and that’s actually part of the text and in the thing. What I do have a problem with (Talia and Lucia laugh) is the way that air, oxygen, and airlocks work because
Talia Franks: I was going to say that was going to be my thing.
Lucia Kelly: Ughhhhh. That is established. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: Like, I have in my notes, “How does this make sense? That doesn’t make sense.”
Lucia Kelly: It doesn’t.
Lucia Kelly: Particularly, the part that always takes me out is Scooti, and Scootie’s death. So, I like the idea of this entire base is basically a kit. Like it’s a really cool idea to say that ” Yeah, no, it’s a big, giant cupboard, and we’re all here.”
Talia Franks: Mhmm.
Lucia Kelly: And bits, kind of, break off, or they can be put back in, bits of the base can just fall off at points, which is fine. I find that a cool idea. To that end, every door can become an airlock. And that’s why, you know, the computer’s always being like “Open door three.” “Close door three.” Dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, it’s all set up in universe as, this base is set up to break, basically. (Talia mhmms) But the thing is when Scooti dies, (Lucia sighs) So, Toby goes out into space by opening one of the doors and then closing it again, without a space suit, because now he’s possessed by the devil (Lucia laughs while speaking) and can do what he likes. But that would open the base up to the vacuum of space, which we know, because it also happens in the text when the window breaks that causes a breach and is like, a big fucking deal.
Lucia Kelly: And if we assume that airlock is not quote unquote, a “proper airlock” as we would typically imagine it in a spaceship, of like, there is the door to the airlock, there’s the box, which is meant to be the vacuum, and then you go outside, like there’s an intermediary chamber. It literally just opens out into the outside environment, that would cause a breach (Lucia claps for emphasis) .
Lucia Kelly: So the entire setup of that whole thing does not make sense. (Lucia makes a half gasp/half laugh) The breach would have happened before.
Talia Franks: I don’t know what to tell you.
Lucia Kelly: (Lucia gasps/laughs again) It’s just this like really weird logical gap.
Lucia Kelly: (Lucia is audibly distressed and makes an anxious noise) And then the fact that Scootie, despite the fact that we’ve again established that there is a vacuum in space, there’s no atmosphere, there’s no environment, for some reason is floating above habitation three for a really long time so that we can have that dramatic moment. (Lucia laughs)
Lucia Kelly: And then she goes off instead of you know, (Lucia speaks with barely contained laughter) being pulled, with the force that a black hole would pull a singular human body into itself.
Talia Franks: Yeah, I don’t know. I dunno what to tell you. It’s dramatic effect. It’s what the text needs.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. So there are lots of like little nitpicky moments where it’s like, “Hmmm, that doesn’t make sense.” And like the whole in the air vents situation where like, I’m sorry, Zach, you could absolutely close one of those gates and trap the Ood and everything would be okay. Like, it,
Talia Franks: (Lucia makes a small noise of frustration) Yeah, I feel like they went past a gate where they could’ve closed it to trap the Ood.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, there’s literally a moment where you see on the screen that there is a gate that Zach could close, and then he’s like, “I can’t do it.” I’m like “Why not?” (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: Yeah. I dunno why he couldn’t close that gate.
Lucia Kelly: It makes no sense.
Talia Franks: Also, I don’t know why they keep calling them earthquakes if they’re not on Earth? (Lucia scoffs and Talia laughs)
Talia Franks: Also another thing, if the TARDIS is gone, how are they talking?
Lucia Kelly: Well, it’s not gone, is the thing, right? Like we find—
Talia Franks: No, I mean, but how were they not noticing that they’re still being able to talk if they think that the TARDIS is gone?
Lucia Kelly: I guess they just assumed that because they’re all humans from Earth, apparently that they are speaking English. Like, as default. (Talia inhales deeply and then sighs)
Talia Franks: I need a drink. The colonialism.
Lucia Kelly: Also! Question! Question! So the TARDIS translation field works in a sort of proximity effect, right? Like, presumably there’s a point where you walk far enough away from the TARDIS and then suddenly you’re experiencing languages as they are not as the TARDIS translates them.
Talia Franks: I can’t wait until we get to Cold War. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: Um, But no, the TARDIS is 20 miles underground, (Talia yawns) at least. Cause Ida and the Doctor go 10 miles underground. (Lucia hmmms) And then the Doctor goes into the pit, past what the 10 miles of cable has. (Lucia hmmms) So, the TARDIS is at least 20 miles into the planet.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: And the translation field was still working. (Lucia laughs) But the reason I said I can’t wait until we get to Cold War is because in Cold War, they’re in a submarine with a bunch of Russians and they’re speaking Russian and the TARDIS abandons them for, I forget why
Lucia Kelly: It’s had enough. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: But the TARDIS fucks off and goes to the south pole (Lucia mhmms) while they’re in the Arctic. (Lucia mhmms) and they’re still able to talk to the Russians. So I think the TARDIS has range. (Lucia laughs)
Lucia Kelly: The TARDIS has the range.
Lucia Kelly: (Transition wobbles) Do we have more to say about the Ood, or do we want to move on to religion?
Talia Franks: Oh. They’re both such meaty topics.
Lucia Kelly: I know.
Talia Franks: I feel like—
Lucia Kelly: This is a very meaty pair of episodes.
Talia Franks: This really is. So… (Talia sighs with dismay) the Ood. The casual way in which they plan to murder the Ood. Not once, but twice, (Lucia makes a noise of agreement) three times actually. Because first, they plan to hide out while opening all the airlocks and jettisoning the Ood. Then, they issue that signal that causes brain death for all the Ood. (Lucia makes a noise of agreement) And then they all jump in the rocket and fuck off leaving the Ood to be sucked into the black hole.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. And also they opened fire on the Ood.
Talia Franks: Yeah. So
Lucia Kelly: So
Talia Franks: four, so (Talia claps in resignation)
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. (Talia sighs)
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. It’s really interesting how the, this idea of…. this community very clearly does not consider the Ood as quote unquote, “full life forms.”
Talia Franks: They don’t even register as life forms on the sensors. (Lucia makes noises of agreement)
Talia Franks: And that just goes to show how people are their own undoing.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no, they’re referred to multiple times as cattle or livestock, and I also, I really, really liked the characterization of Danny because I think that’s an excellent representation of how casual racism and slavery integrates into society (Talia mhmms) and how… the fact that his job description is the “ethical committee” is fascinating.
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: He’s introduced as this kind of… like the way that Toby immediately assumes when the devil starts whispering to him, Danny’s playing a prank. Danny is clearly the class clown. He’s the jokester. He’s the one that everyone likes and we’re introduced to him through that lens. (Talia mhmms) And then it becomes clearer and clearer, and even Scootie as well, who is very likable, both of them condone and are completely okay with the idea of Ood enslavement. And just how… how if a society and a community condones… how group think infects (Talia mhmms) and how quote unquote “good people.” I’m using quote unquote a lot this episode. But quote, unquote, “good people,” how people rationalize the depersonalization of others
Talia Franks: Mhmmm, yeah.
Lucia Kelly: As long as it benefits them.
Talia Franks: Yeah. I was definitely noticing that cause like I hate Danny so much.
Talia Franks: Like I loathe him so much, but I have to admit that he’s characterized very well because that’s exactly how people were and are like, the casual racism just pops right out. It’s not racism, it’s speciesism. (Talia sighs) It distresses me that he has the same name as Danny Pink, because I’m a Danny Pink Stan. But this Danny, I hate.
Talia Franks: (Talia laughs softly and Lucia hmms) I’m really upset that he’s one of the people who lives to the end.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. I dunno. I think it’s clear, at least I read it as clear, that we are not meant to like Danny.
Talia Franks: No, we are not meant to like Danny.
Lucia Kelly: No. And that becomes clearer and clearer as he gets like more panicky and shouty and all that sort of thing.
Talia Franks: Seriously. He’s so unhelpful. He’s so annoying. The only thing that he’s helpful to do is to commit genocide against the Ood.
Talia Franks: That’s the only thing he’s good for.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. Yep.
Talia Franks: Which says a lot.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. Toby is also an interesting character because we don’t really get to know him. Which is, I think one of the, sort of, weaknesses of the episode is that he is possessed so quickly that we don’t get to know the real Toby?
Lucia Kelly: We get that moment, that like, super creepy moment, where Toby just puts his finger to his lips and tells the Ood to quiet down.
Lucia Kelly: Because up until that point, the audience is left unclear as to whether, there’s little moments, but we’re not quite sure whether this is Toby fully unpossessed or whether the beast is just being quiet. And that sort of confirmation for the audience that like, no, the beast is still very much in Toby.
Lucia Kelly: So… I don’t know. I feel like… we don’t get to know Toby well enough before he’s taken over. I will say the actor was brilliant at doing that kind of subtle, subtle possession.
Talia Franks: Oh, yeah, the actor was so great. It was… Will Thorp.
Lucia Kelly: Hm. Yeah, no. Props to Will Thorp. That was an excellent portrayal, yeah.
Lucia Kelly: The, the makeup’s a little funny, the like, marker? The like permanent marker writing? (Lucia and Talia are both audibly trying not to laugh)
Talia Franks: It looks like Sharpie.
Lucia Kelly: It looks like Sharpie.
Talia Franks: It looks like someone wrote on him with a Sharpie.
Lucia Kelly: I know. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: Bless those 2006 special effects.
Lucia Kelly: But the um, the other effects are brilliant. I love the beast.
Talia Franks: The Doctor going into the pit though.
Lucia Kelly: It’s very, yeah, no, it’s very 2006.
Lucia Kelly: I think we’ve covered the Ood. We’ll get back to it. Cause they reappear, they come back, and…
Talia Franks: They do come back.
Lucia Kelly: Guess what? We never fix it. We never fix it completely.
Talia Franks: Nope.
Lucia Kelly: They’re always, they’re always problematic. (Talia mhmms)
Lucia Kelly: But the Ood, as to be expected, I guess, are not the main focus of this episode, it’s the question of religion, religion and faith specifically
Lucia Kelly: It’s this idea of, what is that the core of religion and specifically not so much religion, but the fear of evil,
Talia Franks: mhmm
Lucia Kelly: and what evil is and what it represents.
Talia Franks: I mean, it’s the fear of evil, but also it’s the fear of specifically Satan and the devil, which feels very Christian to me.
Lucia Kelly: Right? Yeah, I was very, (Lucia sighs) it reminded me a lot actually about how Loki is represented in the Avengers movie, because that is an incredibly Christian view of a Norse god. Right? (Talia mhmms) Which is like, those two things don’t mesh, it’s completely different framework. In the same way, even though there are multiple references throughout the entire episode of this idea of the horned devil as the embodiment of evil represented throughout multiple religions (according to the Doctor) throughout the universe, the view of religion and the view of faith is very Christian.
Talia Franks: It’s so Christian it’s disturbing. (Talia sniffs) I don’t like it.
Lucia Kelly: Would you like to expand on that or is it just…? (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: No, I just— Agh, I just, it just bothers me, that Christianity is used as the lens through which to view all religions, because it’s not a good lens.
Lucia Kelly: (Talia sighs) Well, it’s not a very forgiving lens, right? It’s not a very… depending on which branch of Christianity you talking about, cause that’s the other thing, right? Is that it’s a very specific view even of the Christian devil.
Talia Franks: Mhmm.
Lucia Kelly: This idea of, even within Christianity, how the devil is represented varies wildly, and this is a very specific representation of what the devil and personified evil means. And to be honest, not a very complicated one, like there’s a reason why religion is such a hot topic, and, part of it is that it’s so complicated
Talia Franks: Mhmm
Lucia Kelly: and it’s so tied to people’s sense of identity and people’s sense of worth, and this idea of faith and belief is very intrinsically human and different for everyone who thinks about it, and this representation of the beast doesn’t leave space for that.
Talia Franks: It really doesn’t.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. Similarly to The Idiot’s Lantern, which we just watched, it feels very much like they tried to address this very big topic, even within the double episode, so you’ve got double the length to discuss it, and they kind of bit off like, two major, major issues (Lucia laughs) , religion and slavery (Talia mhmms) .
Lucia Kelly: And didn’t really dive deep enough into either of them.
Talia Franks: They didn’t do either of them justice. (Lucia makes a noise of agreement)
Talia Franks: And. (Talia sighs) I don’t know. It’s interesting, these two episodes, they’re so full and yet… they end up leaving you wanting more? And part of that is by design. Like, at the end of it there’s so much that you don’t know? And the Doctor even ends up saying that it’s better off that way, that they don’t know.
Talia Franks: It strikes me as interesting also how it makes the Doctor question his own beliefs, because it says before time before the universe, and the Doctor can’t believe that, which seems silly to me.
Talia Franks: It seems intuitive to me that there had to have been something before this universe, (Lucia hmms) but also I think that’s just because I’ve seen the Sarah Jane episode, you know, the one I’m talking about, right?
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: I don’t know. I think (Lucia sighs) like “before the universe” implies, that there was something before the universe. It makes it strange that he says that “If someone said beyond the universe, I’d believe it, but before the universe, impossible,” because essentially that’s the same thing, when you get down to it. This idea of the universe as a closed space, which it isn’t, like beyond the universe is a spatial differentiation, and before the universe is a time differentiation, but they’re both,
Talia Franks: Space and time
Talia and Lucia together: are the same thing.
Lucia Kelly: Exactly. It’s the same thing.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah,
Talia Franks: I just want to make it clear that I hold no ill will toward anyone who is a Christian or practices Christianity, I simply take issue with how, as a dominant religious blueprint, it has taken ownership of the cultural landscape and in many ways has prevented diversity both through centuries of violence and oppression against those who are not Christian, or the wrong kind of Christian, and through the suppression of other religious practices through their minoritization in media. I hope that everyone who listens to this podcast knows that Lucia and I approach all of our conversations on this podcast in good faith with each other and with our listeners.
Lucia Kelly: I do. I love Ida. I love Ida so much.
Talia Franks: I love Ida so much.
Lucia Kelly: She’s so, she’s just the best. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: Ida, Ida and Zack are my favorites and I’m so glad that they got to live to the end. Like they’re the ones I really wanted to live to the end.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: I would have been happy if Jefferson also lived to the end.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: I’m slightly disappointed that Danny is still alive. (Lucia laughs and Talia laughs while saying um)
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no. So, that moment when the beast is going on, trying to sort of unsettle everyone and he kind of delves into their deepest, darkest secrets or whatever, and he’s like, Zach, you don’t believe you’re a proper captain, Ida, you’re running from your dad, Jefferson, you’re running from your wife.
Lucia Kelly: And then he turns to Toby and he’s like the Virgin. And I’m like what the fuck? (Lucia and Talia laugh) Why is that, why is that considered on par?
Talia Franks: It’s because Toby was a sweet cinnamon roll who had done no wrong, and the beast had nothing on him. (Lucia laughs)
Lucia Kelly: Toby just wanted to be left alone, doing his archeology work. (Lucia continues to laugh)
Talia Franks: Like the beast had nothing on Toby.
Lucia Kelly: He was like, “Hmm. Since I am the personification of a very particular Christian devil, let’s just throw into some sex shaming. For the fun of it!” (Lucia sighs)
Lucia Kelly: We also get more Torchwood , and more references to Doomsday. And the Doctor-Rose stuff was off the charts these two episodes. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: Oh my god, it really was. The Tenrose just jumped out.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, so, have we covered everything?
Talia Franks: I think we covered everything.
Lucia Kelly: Beautiful. Okay, so. (Lucia claps) Favorite and least favorite moment.
Talia Franks: My least favorite moment is anything having to do with Danny.
Lucia Kelly: Fair. My least favorite moment is, oh, actually no, there is something I want to address or talk about, do you, what do you reckon is the relationship between Ida and Scooti? Cause there was, there something there. I’m not sure if it was like protege or like distant relations or gay or there was something
Talia Franks: I think it was definitely protege.
Lucia Kelly: Right?
Talia Franks: I don’t think I don’t, I don’t think it was gay. I think it was just like protege. I was picking up vibes between Ida and Zack.
Lucia Kelly: Ooh. Interesting. I did not pick that up at all. I was picking up, I picked, I picked up, like there was a something between Ida and Scooti and it was also a, something I think, between Scooti and Toby.
Talia Franks: I picked him as something between Scooti and Toby.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. I feel like they were very much sort of like before everything happened, I was like this skinny love sort of situation going on with both of them kind of liked each other, but neither of them were talking about it because at that moment, when that moment, when he kind of calls her out to the, like the acting, the acting that is happening on Scooti’s face during that whole scene is just breaks my heart.
Lucia Kelly: But yeah, and also the fact that Ida and Scooti looked very similar was doing me in a bit, like they look kind of like they might be related, which was why I was like “What’s happening here?”
Talia Franks: Yeah, no, I think it was definitely, I definitely just picking up a protege vibe. (Lucia hmms) Maybe they might’ve been related? But I don’t know.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. My least favorite moment is probably… (Lucia was singing but then sighs, resigned) yeah, the treatment of the Ood, just overall, just the whole thing of it, (Talia mhmms) leaves such a bad taste in my mouth.
Lucia Kelly: My favorite moment is… the whole thing, again, like I’m doing very broad things for this episode, (Lucia laughs) these two episodes, but my favorite moment was… everything with the Doctor, and the pit, and the Beast. I love, that whole scene is great.
Talia Franks: Yeah, I’ve really liked all of the Doctor and Ida’s, conversation, and their interactions. I really liked, one, I really liked the Doctor saying “No, I’m going to go back for once in my life. I’m going to go back.” I liked that part, but then I also liked, I really liked the acting on David Tennant’s part when he was like “go on, go on, go on, go on.”
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. (Talia laughs) Yeah, no, Ida and the Doctor is a very special relationship for me. I love them together. And how they kind of think about discovery and investigation and learning, (Talia mhmms) and I hate that, (Lucia huffs) it’s very rude of them to tease that like, “we’ll see you in the future.” Like “See you around Ida” and I’m like, “You never did that! Bring her back! She’s the coolest!”
Talia Franks: I don’t know. Maybe she has a book out there that we haven’t read (Lucia hmmms) or maybe she’ll do an audio drama someday.
Lucia Kelly: Maybe we should just write it. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: Yeah maybe we should just write fanfic.
Talia Franks: Okay.
Lucia Kelly: The Hero and the Adam.
Talia Franks: The Adam was Danny, hands-down.
Lucia Kelly: Yep.
Talia Franks: If I could give him, can we give him to Adam awards? Cause this is two episodes.
Lucia Kelly: (Lucia laughs) Yeah, I suppose. Let’s do the Hero and the Adam for each episode. I want to give, it’s the same situation I had with New Earth, where it’s like, I want to give Cassandra the Hero, but I don’t know how, and in the same way I want to give Ida the Hero, but I don’t know. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: For which episode? For both of them?
Lucia Kelly: I’m okay with giving her just one, because I feel like that would be, that would be a bit too nepotistic. (Lucia laughs)
Lucia Kelly: I don’t know. I just… her the whole vibe. I loved everything about it. The way that she talks about philosophy on science, and discovery, and how she thinks about things, the way that she…
Talia Franks: I mean, I think she does actually deserve the Hero because if she hadn’t taken the initiative to, “Let’s just not sit around, let’s go into the pit.” (Lucia hmms) Like “We might as well do something with our remaining air” then… like the Doctor is the one who actually went into the pit, but if she hadn’t done that, then the Doctor wouldn’t have been able to stop the Beast and find the TARDIS and so I think Ida deserves the Hero.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. Also interesting question. Do you reckon if Ida had gone down would she have destroyed it? Would she have done the thing?
Talia Franks: I think she would have.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah?
Talia Franks: I mean, if she knew how. I don’t know if she would have been able to read the writing, (Lucia hmms) and also, she wouldn’t have known how to fly the TARDIS, so, (Lucia gasps)
Lucia Kelly: I also really did like the bit where, because so often we have this thing of like, “how do we justify the fact that the Doctor is talking out loud and just explaining all this stuff?” (Lucia and Talia laugh) And then he’s like, “Hmmm, I hope you’re getting this Ida.” (Talia and Lucia laugh again)
Lucia Kelly: That was a good moment. Do you know, what’s really funny?
Talia Franks: What?
Lucia Kelly: I don’t think we have ever given Rose the Hero ever. Apart from, (Talia and Lucia laugh) I’m pretty sure we gave her the Hero in Rose, in the first episode, but I don’t think we have since.
Talia Franks: I don’t know that we’ve been tracking the Hero and the Adam.
Lucia Kelly: We can go back and do it.
Talia Franks: We need to listen back to our episodes and figure out what we did.
Lucia Kelly: But I’m kind of leaning towards Rose as the Hero for The Impossible Planet, just because she is the one that’s, all of her union work, and like… (Lucia laughs) really trying to get to the bottom of what’s happening. I appreciate that.
Talia Franks: Okay.
Talia Franks: Production. I want to give it a five.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, me too.
Talia Franks: Writing!
Lucia Kelly: Hmmm.
Talia Franks: Three.
Lucia Kelly: Three? Yeah.
Talia Franks: I cannot abide the slavery.
Talia Franks: Acting. Five.
Lucia Kelly: Five.
Talia Franks: Science?
Lucia Kelly: Science!
Talia Franks: Four?
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, I’m going to give it a four.
Talia Franks: Rewatchability? Five.
Lucia Kelly: Five!
Talia Franks: Absolutely! These are very rewatchable episodes.
Lucia Kelly: These are very good episodes, very rewatchable.
Talia Franks: Okay. Five plus five plus five plus four plus three times four, is 88!
Lucia Kelly: Yay! B+!
Lucia Kelly: Thank you for listening to The Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Podcast.
Talia Franks: We hope you enjoyed this adventure with us through space and time.
Lucia Kelly: You can find us elsewhere on the internet on Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram @WibblyPod. Follow us for more Wibbly Wobbly content.
Talia Franks: You can find out more information about us and our content on wibblywobblytimeywimey.net, and full transcripts for episodes at wibblywobblytimeywimey.net/transcripts.
Lucia Kelly: If you’d like to get in touch with us, you can also send us an email at firstname.lastname@example.org.
Talia Franks: Please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and other platforms as it helps other people find us and our content.
Lucia Kelly: If you’d like to support us, you can send us a donation at paypal.me/wibblypod
Talia Franks: Special thanks to our editor, Dee who has been a vital member of the Wibbly Wobbly Team.
Lucia Kelly: That’s all for now. Catch you in the time vortex!