Talia Franks: Hello and welcome to the Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Podcast!

Lucia Kelly: I’m Lucia Kelly, expert at applied analysis, and I’m being facetious, aren’t I? There’s no call for it.

Talia Franks: And I’m Talia Franks, media critic, fan fic enthusiast, and desperate to be loved.

Lucia Kelly: And we are here today to talk about Fear Her, the 11th episode of Series Two of Doctor Who.

Talia Franks: Fear Her aired on June 24th, 2006. It was written by Matthew Graham and directed by Phil Collinson.

Lucia Kelly: Lucia from the future here. Uh, it wasn’t directed by Phil Collinson. Fear Her was directed by Euros Lyn. It was produced by Phil Collinson. Sorry! Bye. Back to the episode.

Lucia Kelly: Reminder that time isn’t a straight line. It can twist into any shape and as such, this is a fully spoiled podcast. We might bring things in from later in the show, the comics, the books, the audio dramas, or even fan theories and articles.

Talia Franks: With that outta the way. We’re two lonely messed up kids. So let’s get in the TARDIS. (Transition wobbles)

Talia Franks: Content warning. In this episode, we discuss triggering topics such as child abuse, trauma, and racial profiling.

Talia Franks: If those may be difficult for you, we understand if you need to skip this episode. You can also always go to our website, wibblywobblytimeywimey.net, and read the transcript for this episode if that makes you more comfortable than listening along.

Lucia Kelly: Okay. This is one of the worst rated episodes of the entire run of Nu Who. I don’t think it deserves it. It’s a good episode for what it is. It’s not spectacular. It’s not gonna break any boundaries — Actually it did break boundaries! — It is the first episode of Doctor Who in its entirety to explicitly deal with child abuse, like to explicitly have that in the story.

Talia Franks: Yeah. This episode makes me viscerally uncomfortable.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. This episode deals with a lot of things.

Talia Franks: Okay. So there’s a lot of things about this episode that stand out as noteworthy and that make me uncomfortable. One of the things about this episode that I both liked and disliked, and I think as also indicative of something that we’ve discussed before, which is that RTD, like Chibnall who comes after him, has a problem with colorblind casting and the way that he portrays Black people and People of Color in the show.

Talia Franks: It very much stuck out to me that, as you said, this is the first episode in all of Doctor Who that deals with child abuse and RTD made the choice to have that first episode that deals with child abuse, be an episode with a Black family. That was very noticeable to me. It was also very noticeable to me that Chloe is dark skinned while Trish is light skinned, which means that, presuming that Chloe is not adopted, her dad, who’s unnamed, is a dark-skinned man.

Lucia Kelly: And quite literally demonized, like the drawing that is in the back of her cupboard literally has horns and fire and all this kind of stuff. What I find interesting as a bit of trivia is that this episode was actually slated for season three, which would’ve had Martha as a companion (Talia mmms) and it got pushed forward or pushed back, I guess, due to scheduling issues.

Lucia Kelly: And I wonder how different this episode would come across if instead of Rose, it was Martha who was companion for this episode. I think it would’ve been different in a lot of ways.

Talia Franks: Yeah, I think it definitely would’ve been different.

Talia Franks: One of the things that also stuck out to me in this episode, in terms of race, since we’re talking about it, is Kel, (Lucia mhmms) and how, as an outsider on the street, he’s so eager. He’s so friendly. He’s honestly one of the bright shining lights of this episode. He’s so nice. Honestly, he reminds me of a golden retriever. He’s the best.

Talia Franks: And yet, people on the street seem so suspicious of him. When there’s nothing to be suspicious — he’s just there doing his job. And he’s passionate about doing his job. And yet there’s this white lady who’s attacking him and being suspicious of him just because he’s a stranger on the street who’s a Black man.

Lucia Kelly: He has a coworker! He has a coworker with him and that coworker literally gets no attention. The only reason I noticed him is during the fingers on lip scene, he’s in the background next to Kel also with his fingers on his lips, but he’s got the hi vis jacket on, he’s very clearly Kel’s coworker.

Lucia Kelly: And you would never know he’s there, if it wasn’t for that one shot, because literally all of the attention is always on Kel because everyone in the street has him as their main suspect.

Talia Franks: Yeah. And that is honestly not surprising that everyone on the street has this Black man as their main suspect. I actually think that makes sense. That is actually indicative of things being paid attention to in the episode.

Talia Franks: And also, I think it makes sense that Chloe and Trish, as the new family on the block, a Black family, are isolated. Chloe doesn’t have very many friends. Trish doesn’t seem like she knows other people on the street very well. They don’t interact with people very much. I think it actually makes a lot of sense for them to be more isolated from the white people in the street.

Talia Franks: And I actually think that would’ve been interesting if it was pushed farther and examined more because there are all these low-level cues that are indicative of what it’s like to live as a Black family on a white street, isolated from all these people. What distresses me is that they’re the villains.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, I think the one person who tries to make a connection with Trish is — I believe her name is Maeve — the older woman, who’s another shining star. I love her. She’s just got no time for anyone’s nonsense. And it’s just like, “It’s supernatural. We live in this timeline. Please leave the Councilman alone. We’ve got aliens to deal with.”

Talia Franks: Yeah. I love her so much. Maeve is great.

Lucia Kelly: But yeah, aside from that. I found the casting of the two other neighbours very interesting. Like perfect casting. They’re exactly the kind of people I would expect to be that kind of very particular middle class suburbia white family that is absolutely conservative, but thinks they’re liberal.

Talia Franks: Yep.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. I have so many mixed feelings about Chloe’s dad and that whole storyline, because on the one hand, I think it’s really powerful.

Lucia Kelly: And again, this is the issue with colourblind casting, right? Is that on its own, if this was a white family, I would say that it’s a really powerful story and also very accurate and true to life in terms of the impact of having a person like that in your house and the danger that has.

Lucia Kelly: But the moment that casting is finalised, you need to go back to the script because that is such a dangerous story to tell when you have so few Black people and you are choosing this pivotal moment to be about Black violence and Black anger.

Talia Franks: Yeah. If we wanted to fix this, I don’t think they necessarily need to be a white family. I think — It makes me uncomfortable that this is a depiction of Black violence as this first depiction of child abuse that we see. At the same time, I think that, Chloe and Trish, they were both fully fleshed out characters to me, and the actresses who played them, both did really great jobs.

Talia Franks: Um —

Lucia Kelly: Oh yeah. Nina Sosanya turns up in everything and I adore her every time she turns up, she’s just this like, powerhouse actress, and she’s stunning and I love her.

Talia Franks: Yeah. What I would say is, I don’t think the solution is changing them to a white family. I think the solution is having more Black people in the episode as a whole like, all the neighbors didn’t have to be white.

Talia Franks: Like I said, it was an interesting dynamic to have them be the only Black family on the street and have them be isolated in that way. But because that wasn’t explored, I think it would’ve been more interesting to maybe have Maeve be an older Black woman who was more interested in the family. I think that would’ve been an interesting take.

Talia Franks: If some of the other kids that had been taken, were like, explicitly Black and dark skinned, that could have been interesting too — and now I’m just thinking how it could have been an exploration of how white children missing are treated differently from Black children missing — I don’t know if that’s too advanced for a kid’s show and Doctor Who, but it would’ve been an interesting exploration to just take that further.

Talia Franks: And we do have Kel, but I think the solution isn’t to have less Black people in villain and marginalized roles, it’s to have more Black people and People of Color in other roles that are supporting roles and that are hero roles, because also notice that there were no People of Color other than Black people.

Talia Franks: That’s another thing to note, like why is that? Have you noticed how few Asians there are in Doctor Who? Have you ever picked up on that?

Lucia Kelly: Oh yeah. There’s a moment in the season finale, which is just, the worst, but we’ll get to that next week. Um — (Lucia laughs)

Lucia Kelly: but yeah, no, definitely. That’s an issue as well of like, Asian people don’t turn up apart from, to be a really offensive stereotype.

Lucia Kelly: Basically overall, I think (Lucia sighs) it’s frustrating because I feel like this episode has a lot of untapped potential and there were lots of ways that you could have taken it and made it better and made it — like I feel like if you’re, if you’re gonna have the abuse storyline really dive into that and do it properly, if you are going to have the racial profiling and what it’s like to be Black in Britain storyline really dive into that storyline, if you are going to have a storyline about mothers and daughters, and like how that plays into everything, like the relationship between Trish and Chloe is very interesting, and despite them being fully fleshed out is not explored to this extent that I — like, there are these glimpses of Trish that are fascinating, but are all kind of surface level. There are so many avenues this episode could have gone down and it went down none of them.

Talia Franks: Yeah. I feel like Trish and Chloe are fairly fleshed out.

Talia Franks: They feel like very whole people to me. But at the same time, there is so much more room for exploration for them. There was so much more that I wanted to know about them. And like, also, like, the definition of fleshed out is different for different types of characters and different types of episodes.

Talia Franks: ‘Cause there’s so much more that we could know about them. And if we explored those avenues, there’s so much opportunity there that there just isn’t time for, and I think that’s the fault of these shorter episodes, is that we just don’t have time, and I think that’s why I really appreciated a longer story, like Flux, that’s interconnected and has more time to go into depth with things. And I feel like if more episodes were two-part episodes, where we got a chance to really get to know characters and get to know storylines, I feel like that would be advantageous.

Talia Franks: I know in Old Who a lot of stories were told across multiple episodes, and one thing that I’m eager for, and hopeful for, is for more episodes that are multipart stories.

Lucia Kelly: Well, interestingly, the only other episodes that Matthew Graham wrote was a two parter. He wrote “The Rebel Flesh” and “The Almost People” in Season Six.

Lucia Kelly: So let’s put a pin in that and see how he does.

Lucia Kelly: I have mixed feelings about those two episodes. I remember really liking some parts and really not liking others. So we’ll see.

Talia Franks: Yeah. I have a lot of feelings about “The Rebel Flesh” and “The Almost People” and the idea of sentience and autonomy.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah.

Talia Franks: We’ll get there.

 (Transition wobbles)

Talia Franks: Pivoting slightly, can we talk about how Chloe needs therapy?

Lucia Kelly: Oh, so badly. So badly! This poor kid!

Talia Franks: Chloe and Trish both need lots of therapy. They need individual therapy. They need to go to like, see a counselor together. It’s 2012. They had therapists. Like, I know that this was filmed in 2006 or whatever, they had therapists in 2006 too.

Lucia Kelly: Trish’s characterization is so interesting. I find her fascinating.

Lucia Kelly: Particularly, the moment where Rose — Where like, Trish is explaining what happened and … the dad, and Rose’s like, ” Well, did you talk to her about it?” And Trish just has this very shutting down, like “I didn’t want to.”

Lucia Kelly: That is a wild — like, to have — to portray a mother like that. That actively chooses — This is what I’m saying about how, like we could have explored Trish more. You have this Black woman, this Black mother, whose abusive husband has just died in a violent car crash and is actively choosing to close off all of her emotions and to not talk.

Lucia Kelly: And that is — that is so much potential for so many conversations to happen, and nothing happens.

Lucia Kelly: They don’t even discuss, or like —

Lucia Kelly: There’s no say either way. There’s no judgment, there’s no approval, of how Trish’s dealing with this situation. Apart from the like, general narrative take that she’s dealing with it badly. But the actual characters don’t say anything, which is wild to me.

Talia Franks: So I just did a little bit of math. The actress who plays Trish, Nina Sosanya, was 37 when this was filmed. That means that she was like, 25 when Chloe was born, and I’m just thinking, I know lots of people have kids when they’re 25, but I’m just trying to think about how, if she and Chloe’s dad got together, and Chloe’s dad died a year ago, but if Chloe’s mom met her dad and she was like, maybe 23? Possibly as young as 22? That’s a really long time to be in an abusive relationship, starting when you’re very, very young. Like 22, 23 are very formative years. Yes, that’s adult. Someone who’s 22, 23 is an adult. But those are still formative years to meet someone and to start a relationship with someone who is — then abuses you for over a decade and also affects the way that you parent the child that you have together.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no, absolutely. Like, I’m annoyed by how much potential this episode has. It’s annoying me. It’s frustrating me.

Ad Break

Lucia Kelly: We have been talking about this for a while, so I’m gonna do a quick pivot. Do you wanna talk about Rose and The Doctor? (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Yes, because I specifically want to talk about that brief moment, and this is I think the first indication that we get, but the brief moment where Ten says “I was a dad once.”

Talia Franks: This is the first sort of indication that we get — and we get into it later — and we get into it more with Martha, and with Donna, this idea of Ten and all that he’s lost, including his family, and the idea that Ten is missing his family and missing that sense of family.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. These last three episodes in particular, really push the idea of grief in a fascinating way.

Lucia Kelly: And particularly, like — Again, we’ve talked about how like, Ten is always at 10. Like, Ten’s always feeling everything at once, but I think something that, because for so much of his run, Ten puts on this — or chooses to show — the part of himself that he accesses — is the joy, the love, the excitement and wonder of the universe. I think we forget that the Doctor in general, but Ten in particular is also, at all times, incredibly angry and incredibly sad. The joy that he finds in the universe is brought into stronger relief because he is also so hyper aware of how fleeting it all is. And that is what shapes his worldview. It’s not actually the love. It’s the grief.

Talia Franks: Yeah. And it’s interesting to see the strong parallels between Ten and Thirteen and how Thirteen also hides everything behind such a strong veneer of joy and wonder, but also is hiding this incredible pain and grief behind a feeling of nonchalance. (Lucia hmms in agreement)

Lucia Kelly: It amuses me how it takes Rose off-guard every time. Like, this is just “School Reunion” all over again, where it’s like, “Wait, you are not the fun travel man?” Which is wild because the first Doctor she met was Nine, who was sad all the time. Like (Lucia laughs) that man was never not sad.

Lucia Kelly: I think I’ve just had a euphoria moment. That is part of what bothers me so much about Rose and Ten, is that I feel like Rose treats Ten, and thinks about Ten, very specifically as the “fun Doctor” as The Doctor without trauma, as The Doctor without issues, because he presents so differently to Nine. And so it completely shifts how she sees him. Like, he’s the sexy Doctor, he’s the fun Doctor. He has good hair. He has like, fun times. And because he’s in this brand new body and because he’s openly flirting with her and because they have a very different dynamic as Rose and Ten, as opposed to Rose and Nine, I think she just legitimately forgets that he’s the same man, and it completely screws up their entire relationship. (Transition wobbles)

Talia Franks: To circle back to Ten and Thirteen and differences between Doctors. The thing that struck me as very different is, again, Ten and the general lack of concern for consent that I feel like these earlier Doctors have compared to Thirteen. When he does contact with Chloe, he just goes for it. And this is a thirteen-year-old girl and he just knocks her out so he can speak with the alien that’s possessing her and he doesn’t even tell her mom about it.

Lucia Kelly: Why did you ask Madame de Pompadour’s — for permission and not this thirteen-year-old kid?

Talia Franks: Yeah. It’s just wildly inconsistent. I understand not warning Chloe, who’s possessed by an alien, ’cause you don’t wanna tell the alien about it. I don’t like it because I don’t like scaring a child, but I understand, she’s possessed by an alien, you wanna get in contact with the alien. I understand why you might not tell her about it. But at least pull Trish aside before you do it. Like, at least while you’re outside the room, before you go in — they were in the kitchen, they were away from them — At least tell her, “Hey, I’m gonna go confront the alien that’s possessing your kid. I’m gonna have to knock her out for a second. She’s gonna have a possessed, creepy voice. Just so you know.” Warn her. At least warn her. At least tell her. Give her some information.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no, it was just —

Talia Franks: It’s disgusting.

Lucia Kelly: And also — ’cause that’s — it distresses the Isolus as well. So you, you’ve already broken trust. Like, the very first thing the Isolus says is, is concern for Chloe, because they’re friends, right? Like — (Lucia trails off into distressed and incredulous laughter)

Talia Franks: It’s so messed up. Like — I don’t — cause on the one hand, like, I do understand, like I said, not warning because he doesn’t know that the thing that’s possessing Chloe is benevolent. I mean, not exactly benevolent, but he doesn’t know that the thing possessing, Chloe doesn’t pose a threat to Chloe, ’cause he knows that the thing possessing Chloe has been snatching up kids and cats. From his perspective, the thing that’s possessing Chloe has been acting maliciously, or at least potentially maliciously. It makes sense to try to get the jump on this alien. It just does not make sense to not warn the mother of this child.

Lucia Kelly: And then to put your fingers in her marmalade like that. Like, what the heck? What the heck, Doctor? (Lucia laughs) They’re gonna have to throw that whole jar out. Your dirty space-time fingers? In their marmalade? Really? Disgusting. (Talia huffs a laugh)

Talia Franks: Also, cat slander again!? (Lucia laughs)

Lucia Kelly: Again! I think RTD just doesn’t like cats. I think that’s the issue.

Talia Franks: What’s with the cat slander? Honestly.

Lucia Kelly: Get some dog slander in here. We need to find some of Karvanista’s kin and just have them be real arseholes. Not like Karvanista, who’s a lovable arsehole, just like, find some bloody, rogue deserters who weren’t on the ships. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: No, but the Sontarans killed them all. So —

Lucia Kelly: No, that’s what I’m saying. Like, you have to find the ones that didn’t answer the call because they’re arseholes. So they weren’t there to begin with.

Talia Franks: No, no, but, uh, I mean the Doctor like, reset and undid everything from the Flux. So it’s entirely possible that she undid the genocide against the Lupari — ’cause the Dalek’s are okay!

Lucia Kelly: The Daleks are always okay. The Daleks always survive. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: They’re like cockroaches.

Talia Franks: (Transition wobbles) It was either a conversation we, we had, or I was talking to someone in a forum about it, about how the TARDIS sensors Donna, because Donna Noble would swear.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no, that was the conversation that we were having. It’s one of my favorite theories.

Talia Franks: But the moment where Rose is about to swear and then doesn’t. (Talia lets out a small, quiet burst of laughter)

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no, it’s very, like — and this is, again — please, please I just want everyone in the writer’s room to agree, what Rose’s maturity level is. Like, her age can be up in the air. That’s fine. She can be anywhere between 19 and 22. That’s fine. Whatever. But I just need some consistent maturity. And it can be consistent immaturity. But one or the other. Because Rose was right back to being 19 again today, like all the way back, and it just — (Lucia makes a frustrated mmph) It frustrates me.

Talia Franks: Yeah. It’s definitely frustrating. I really liked the Rose of this episode but she was so inconsistent that it was like, I liked the Rose of this episode, but like I said, I liked the Rose of this episode.

Lucia Kelly: Also never say “Never, never!” Never say “Never, never!” What? Are you kidding? Are you kidding? (Talia laughs quietly)

Lucia Kelly: Tempting fate at this point, being reckless, just showing her whole arse to the gods. “Come get me!” Like —

Talia Franks: Yeah. She’s basically like, “Come at me, bro.”

Lucia Kelly: Ugh. (Transition wobbles)

Lucia Kelly: Is there anything else you wanna cover before we move on to favourite and least favourite moments?

Talia Franks: Just, I would not be cut out to be a companion. Just noticing this again. I would not — like, Rose going upstairs, snooping in Chloe’s room? I would never! Like, sneaking into a child’s bedroom? Even if they were like, being a villain — No! I could never. Like, going into someone else’s house? Snooping around?

Lucia Kelly: I’m trying to think … Are other modern companions as snoopy as Rose? Donna is.

Talia Franks: I don’t know if Martha is that snoopy. Martha has sense.

Lucia Kelly: Martha has sense. I feel like Amy is a bit snoopy, but Rory keeps her in line. (Lucia laughs) Rory’s sensible. (Talia giggles) Clara’s a whole mess.

Talia Franks: Clara is a whole mess.

Lucia Kelly: Clara would absolutely snoop in a child’s room. That’s a good litmus test. Would you snoop in a child’s room? (Talia laughs)

 (Transition wobbles)

Lucia Kelly: The only other thing I think I have to say about this episode, or more tangentially, the potential, the real world potentials this episode has; why the heck didn’t David Tennant get to carry the torch in the real 2012 Olympics? (Talia snickers) Y’all had a perfect setup!

Lucia Kelly: It could have been great! There was a petition. I remember it! And then they have Matt Smith — like, Matt Smith was not The Doctor that needed to carry the torch. You knew that. Everyone was waiting — Anyway. It’s fine. It’s fine. It happened. Or didn’t, as it were.

Talia Franks: David Tennant was busy that day.

Lucia Kelly: No! He’s gone on record being like, “I would’ve loved to.”

Lucia Kelly: You had the whole world on your side and you still didn’t do it. Upsetting. Anyway, (Lucia sighs) least favourite and favourite moments.

Talia Franks: I don’t know that I have a least favorite moment.

Lucia Kelly: Interesting.

Talia Franks: Like, there’s like, a general haze of dislike over the episode, but there’s nothing that I particularly hated that I can pinpoint. (Lucia hmms in agreement) Wait! No, no, no. Okay. No, actually when The Doctor does the contact without asking permission from Trish first, or like, telling Trish that he’s gonna do it. That’s what I dislike.

Lucia Kelly: I am gonna choose, for least favorite moment, the whole, Chloe and Trish and the dad coming down the stairs, or like, the possibility of him coming downstairs.

Lucia Kelly: I hate that moment. It feels so … contrived.

Lucia Kelly: And this is part of why I have so many issues with this abuse storyline, is that it’s really well established, in the reality and the badness of it.

Lucia Kelly: And then the like, solution is singing a song and it all goes away?

Lucia Kelly: And I get that there’s symbolism and I get that it means bigger than that end and blah, blah, blah. Not important. In terms of what’s actually in the episode, it feels really contrived and cheap. And I don’t like it.

Talia Franks: Yeah. I think, for me, I don’t like it, but I will say that I don’t think it’s the song that makes it go away.

Talia Franks: I think it’s the them being together and taking comfort in each other that makes it go away. Like, it’s not the singing the song. They didn’t need to sing. They needed to like, be together and like, take comfort in each other, and like, be there for each other and like, know that they’re a team against the world.

Talia Franks: I think it’s that connection between like, parent and child, that together they can face whatever’s against them and like, that connection between them and forming that bond. Basically anything could have helped them form that bond together. It’s just the song helped them connect, if that makes sense?

Lucia Kelly: I guess, I —

Talia Franks: The song is what united them, but it’s really that connection between parent and child and them uniting that conquered the thing. I don’t really like it, because I think that it’s kind of cheap, but I did like that that was the moment when Chloe and Trish started to like, heal their relationship and start to be there for each other.

Talia Franks: ‘ Cause like, I was very distressed throughout the episode at the distance between Chloe and Trish. That was one of the things that I disliked about the episode, ’cause like, I’m very close with my mom. She’s one of the most important people in my life — And also I would never talk to her the way that Chloe talks to her mom — and so the distance between Chloe and her mom was — Like, I know not everyone gets along with their mothers. I don’t always get along with my mother, but I was very stressed by how antagonistic it felt like their relationship was. So like, that moment where they reconnected. I liked that. I just didn’t like that it took a monster to do it.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. I feel like part of the issue is that for basically the entirety of the episode, we’re not actually seeing Chloe and her mother, we’re seeing the Isolus possessing Chloe and her mother.

Lucia Kelly: Which I think is why it’s important we have that little moment where Trish is like, trying to impress upon The Doctor that Chloe isn’t acting like herself. Like, Chloe’s a good kid, right? We’re given the impression that before this happened, they actually were quite close and I definitely — as soon as Chloe isn’t possessed, I like her so much more. (Lucia laughs) Like, she just comes to life in this way that I’m like, “oh, so this is what Chloe’s actually like.” Cause for the vast majority of the episode, she’s this kind of very distant, isolated, character that is mainly just there to be “creepy child” which makes it very hard to connect to when you are also trying to make her the heart of the episode.

Lucia Kelly: There’s a lot of pressure on Chloe coming in from all sides, both inside and outside of the narrative. And it doesn’t quite come across.

Talia Franks: Yeah. But, moving along, what was your favorite moment?

Lucia Kelly: Favourite moment?

Lucia Kelly: I think it’s definitely gonna be a Rose Ten scene. They were so — like, we’ve gone ad nauseum about how toxic this relationship is. They were very cute this episode. It was annoying. (Lucia laughs and Talia giggles) They were adorable.

Lucia Kelly: Um, I think it’s going to be a tie between “I’m experimenting with back combing.” (Lucia laughs) And that little moment where Ten thinks that Rose is holding out her hand to like, hold it.

Lucia Kelly: And he like, genuinely thinks that’s what’s happening.

Lucia Kelly: It was real himbo hours for Ten this episode. And I enjoyed it. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: My favorite moment was Kel being so excited about his pavement. It was just the most adorable. He was like, “You see how smooth this is?” like, he was like … what does he say? Um —

Lucia Kelly: “Smooth as a baby’s bottom” is something that I remember him saying.

Talia Franks: He says, “Look at this finish. Smooth as a baby’s bottom. Not a bump or a lump. You could eat your dinner off of this. Beautiful.” (Talia and Lucia laugh)

Lucia Kelly: That is a man who knows his tarmac! He could recite the recipe in his sleep. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Yeah. He’s blended to his secret council recipe. (Talia and Lucia laugh)

Talia Franks: He’s like, “That’s a council van. You removed a council axe from a council van” (Talia laughs)

Lucia Kelly: “And now you’re attacking the tarmac with a council axe!”

Talia Franks: He’s like “Put it back! Put the axe back in the van! That’s my van. Give me the axe.” Like “You just took a council axe from a council van and now you’re digging up a council road. I’m reporting you to the council!”

Talia Franks: I love Kel so much! He’s the best thing in this episode.

Lucia Kelly: And you know they’re not paying him overtime, which makes me so sad. The amount of work this man puts in.

Talia Franks: Pushing all those cars.

Lucia Kelly: I hope they paid for his physio after pushing, what is it? Six, seven cars? Damn. (Transition wobbles)

Lucia Kelly: All right. The Hero and the Adam.

Talia Franks: All right. I wanna give the hero to Kel. (Lucia laughs)

Lucia Kelly: How did I know you were gonna say that? (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Okay. So Kel was integral towards finding the little spaceship. Kel had the axe that let them get into Chloe’s room. I’m just saying, Kel is the hero. I really want Kel to be the hero.

Talia Franks: He’s so sweet and nice.

Lucia Kelly: My petition was for Maeve, because she’s the most sensible person on the street and that deserves attention and, and applause.

Lucia Kelly: The other thing is that the spaceship is drawn to the street because of the tarmac that Kel is placing. So there’s also that.

Talia Franks: But if Kel hadn’t placed the tarmac, and the spaceship hadn’t been drawn to the street, then the spaceship would’ve been drawn somewhere else. It’s convenient that the spaceship was drawn to the street because no one actually got hurt.

Lucia Kelly: That is true. This is the first episode since “The Doctor Dances” where there is a zero-fatality rate.

Talia Franks: Yeah. So this is what I’m saying, is that this is the perfect storm, like, if it had been any other situation, then it’s entirely possible that the Isolus could have destroyed the world.

Lucia Kelly: Okay. Yeah, no, let’s talk about this.

Lucia Kelly: So, the Isolus decides that it wants to draw the world, which would put the world in the space, in the drawing space, but the Isolus is on the world, and there are all the drawings, on the world, which are all like — there are parallels, and paradoxes, and —

Talia Franks: Don’t think about it.

Lucia Kelly: — loops, and —

Talia Franks: Don’t think about it. Let’s move on. We don’t have time to think about it.

Lucia Kelly: But I will think about it! You know I’ll think about it!

Talia Franks: Don’t think about it. It doesn’t make sense. We’ll get to it when we get to science. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: We’ll get to it when we get to science.

Lucia Kelly: Alright, so —

Talia Franks: We need to figure out who The Hero is.

Lucia Kelly: I give Kel the Hero. I will grant you this. Kel is Hero.

Talia Franks: Okay. Now who’s the Adam? I think it’s the Isolus.

Lucia Kelly: The Isol— it’s just a baby! It’s just a baby who doesn’t know any better!

Talia Franks: Okay. The Isolus isn’t the Adam. It’s that white lady who was mad at Kel for just being a Black man on the street.

Lucia Kelly: Yes! Okay. ‘Cause I was — I was torn between like, cause I really didn’t wanna make Chloe’s dad the Adam, which kind of the obvious, and also the bad, choice.

Lucia Kelly: And, I was also tossing up as to whether we would make Rose the Adam, because she had some choice moments. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: No, no, no. We’re gonna make the Karen on the street the Adam.

Lucia Kelly: We’re gonna make Karen the Adam. That makes me feel so much better. Yes. Kel is the Hero and Karen is the Adam.

Talia Franks: Okay. Okay.

Lucia Kelly: All right.

Talia Franks: Grading.

Lucia Kelly: Production. All right. I’m actually super impressed with how this was filmed and shot. I know that this was a low budget episode. It was really well done. They used their camera angles. They used, you know, little tricks, little, flashing back and forth. The drawing animation is really good. The scribble monster is also just delightful.

Talia Franks: I love the scribble monster.

Lucia Kelly: I really like the production. I think that they did really well.

Talia Franks: Okay, we can give it a five.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah.

Talia Franks: Alright. Writing, three?

Lucia Kelly: Three. Yeah. We’ve said all we need to say about the writing.

Talia Franks: Acting. I wanna give a five.

Lucia Kelly: Yep.

Talia Franks: Science. Eh…. Science.

Lucia Kelly: Here’s the thing. I really like most of the science — apart from the world issue — which you’ve now banned me from thinking about.

Lucia Kelly: (Lucia and Talia laugh) I liked the sci— apart from the world issue — I really like the science. It’s a really cool concept and it’s really simple as well, which I like.

Lucia Kelly: What would happen if a baby was able to control — was able to create and destroy — It’s — I like it.

Talia Franks: I’m very excited for when we get to the 2D monsters in “Flatline”, but that’s a Season Eight episode.

Lucia Kelly: The titty monsters?

Talia Franks: The 2D monsters. (Lucia crosstalk “Did you just say—”)

Lucia Kelly: Okay.

Talia Franks: Not the titty monsters. (Talia laughs)

Lucia Kelly: I was like, I don’t remember that episode.

Talia Franks: You don’t remember it cuz you never watched Season Eight ’cause you’re a scrub. (Talia laughs and you can hear Lucia roll her eyes when she speaks next)

Lucia Kelly: All right. You gonna give science a three or a four?

Talia Franks: I put a three.

Talia Franks: I’m sorry. I called you a scrub. I’m just annoyed that you haven’t (Lucia laughs) seen Rigsy. Okay. Rewatchability?

Lucia Kelly: Like, two? One? It’s not fun to watch.

Talia Franks: I would give it a zero. So let’s give it a one and meet in the middle.

Lucia Kelly: All right.

Lucia Kelly: 17 … 17 out of 25, is … Oof, that’s a 68.

Talia Franks: A 68? Oof. Geez.

Lucia Kelly: Oof.

Talia Franks: That’s rough, buddy.

Lucia Kelly: That’s a D plus.

Lucia Kelly: That is eight points away from being a fail, like a fully failed grade. (Lucia laughs)

Lucia Kelly: Closing notes. Had potential. Disappointed. Cool concept. Poor execution. Unfortunately.

Lucia Kelly: Thank you for listening to The Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Podcast.

Talia Franks: We hope you enjoyed this adventure with us through space and time.

Lucia Kelly: You can find us elsewhere on the internet on Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram @WibblyPod. Follow us for more Wibbly Wobbly content.

Talia Franks: You can find out more information about us and our content on wibblywobblytimeywimey.net, and full transcripts for episodes at wibblywobblytimeywimey.net/transcripts.

Lucia Kelly: If you’d like to get in touch with us, you can also send us an email at wibblywobblytimeywimeypod@gmail.com.

Talia Franks: Please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and other platforms as it helps other people find us and our content.

Lucia Kelly: If you’d like to support us, you can send us a donation at paypal.me/wibblypod

Talia Franks: Special thanks to our editor, Dee who has been a vital member of the Wibbly Wobbly Team.

Lucia Kelly: That’s all for now. Catch you in the time vortex!