Talia Franks: Hello and welcome to the Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Podcast! It’s been a while.

Lucia Kelly: (Lucia laughs) It has been a while. I’m Lucia Kelly, expert at applied analysis, and no doubt this Rasputin had a lot of hidden charms, though he was a brute, I just fell into his arms. (Talia laughs)

Talia Franks: And I’m Talia Franks, media critic, fanfic enthusiast, and I don’t make empty threats.

Lucia Kelly: And we’re here today for a Wibbly Wobbly minisode, or not-so-minisode, as the case may be.

Talia Franks: Not-so-mini minisode.

Talia Franks: Today we’ll be talking about The Power of the Doctor, which aired on October 23rd, 2022. (Talia sighs deeply) The last Thirteenth Doctor episode. Be strong folks. Be strong. It was written by Chris Chibnall and directed by Jamie Magnus Stone.

Talia Franks: To be clear, we are talking about just Power of the Doctor. We are not talking about the Next Time trailer, so, don’t worry your pretty little heads. There will be a different episode for that, so you’ll be spoiler free for talking about that trailer.

Lucia Kelly: Aside from that, a reminder that time is not a straight line.

Lucia Kelly: It can twist into any shape, and as such, this is a fully spoiled podcast, apart from, as previously stated, the Next Time trailer. So, we might bring things in from later in the show, or earlier in the show as the case may be, the comics, the books, the audio dramas, or even fan theories and articles.

Talia Franks: With that out of the way, leave Earth now Doctor, or it will be the death of you, because really, honestly, truly, this is the day you die. No, not just die. This is the day that you are erased from existence. Forever! So let’s get in TARDIS.

(Transition wobbles)

Lucia Kelly: IMDB says that this is the one where The Master brings the Daleks and the Cybermen together to wipe the Doctor and Earth from existence.

Talia Franks: Our synopsis is this is the one where The Master is only getting sexier and more unhinged. Meanwhile, Yaz is the most confident companion we have seen to date. Jodie Whittaker is acting her ass off. Oh my God. Thasmin has an ice cream date instead of saying goodbye.

Lucia Kelly: Not to mention Ace and Tegan are here! Ah! They’re kicking ass and taking names, and I’m so 100% here for it, and there should be more integration of Classic Who and Nu Who stuff, and I’m hoping that’s what this is an indication of ⁠—

Talia Franks: Yeah.

Lucia Kelly: ⁠— because I need more of it in my life. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Yeah. We stan the companion support group on this podcast. Also I saw a lot of people on Twitter commenting about the empty seat in the support group. And I’m sorry to say, for those of you who didn’t notice it, there’s a laptop on that chair. People were zooming in.

Lucia Kelly: You set the table, someone doesn’t turn up, and you’re like, “Okay, let’s utilize the space.” It doesn’t— (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: But it is a very nice thought that the chair is for someone else who’s not there, like Sarah Jane or Adric or Donna, although, Donna’s coming back—

Lucia Kelly: or Martha who, or Martha, who is the person that Yaz really needs to speak to right now. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Yeah. No. Yaz, Yaz really needs to speak to Martha. Although in that comic that you didn’t read, Yaz did meet Martha. Although I’m not sure if Martha remembers it. I know that Ten didn’t remember it, but I wonder if Martha remembers it.

Talia Franks: Talia from the future here. I am speaking of the comic book A Tale of Two Time Lords: A Little Help From My Friends. In the book Ten and Martha meet Thirteen and the fam while they are stuck in the past during the events of Blink.

Talia Franks: Although, it’s funny, obviously the extra material isn’t always accurate.

Talia Franks: So, it’s really annoying me. I didn’t actually get around to reading it. But there is a book written by Sophie Alred about the Thirteenth Doctor and Ace. And I’m really curious about what happens in that book. You haven’t read the book, have you?

Lucia Kelly: No. (Talia clicks their teeth in disappointment)

Talia Franks: Listeners, let us know if you’ve read it. The book is called At Childhood’s End. It was put out in 2020.

Talia Franks: And it’s a Thirteenth Doctor book. It features Graham, Yaz, and Ryan, and it’s basically a meeting between Ace and the Thirteenth Doctor. And the premise, as far as I know it, is that Ace is having a lot of nightmares and the nightmares have something to do with Ace’s life as a companion and then there’s something aliens, supernatural, going on or whatever.

Talia Franks: It’s basically like, that is the opportunity for the Doctor and Ace to reconnect.

Lucia Kelly: From what you’re saying, it sounds like that would now be considered non canon because this is very clearly the first time that Ace has met Thirteen. And it’s great.

Talia Franks: Yeah, this is very clearly the first time. Yeah. This is very clearly the first time that Ace has met Thirteen and it’s fantastic. So unfortunately that book is no longer can on but I’ve heard really great things about the book and now I wanna read the book that is now no longer canon.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, like, oh my gosh. It —

Lucia Kelly: Ace is so queer and it just brings joy to my heart whenever she’s on screen. But specifically it just made it weirder when she started, quote unquote, “flirting” with Graham. That felt wrong. That felt wrong in my soul. I don’t want that for either of them. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: See? Okay. That is frustrating to me. That is bisexual erasure. (Lucia laughs) Like, Ace is allowed to flirt with Graham. Graham is my bisexual king. I love him. (Talia laughs)

Lucia Kelly: Oh no, I erased myself!

Talia Franks: I actually do ⁠— I see Graham as very bisexual. I love him. Like, to the extent that I love any white man in a show. Like, I don’t love that Graham takes time away from Yaz and Ryan. I definitely see him as like an older ⁠— um, like he’s not even confirmed, to be like, I mean he did have that one kiss with Jack, but that was very much instigated by Jack. But no, I definitely headcanon Graham as being bi. I definitely ship Graham and Dan actually.

Talia Franks: . Don’t look at me like that. I ship Graham and Dan. I ship it very intensely in my soul. You know that John Bishop and Bradley Walsh only have a six year age difference, which like, when you’re that old is very negligible. So I’m saying, it could happen. (Lucia laughs quietly) I’m just saying, it’s feasible.

Talia Franks: Like, I see it in my heart. And, Ace is very queer. I definitely read her as being bi. I definitely read her as being a free spirit. I don’t think that she wants to be tied to any one person. I’m pretty sure she’s into open relationships.

Talia Franks: So, you know, I’m cool with it. I also read Tegan as very queer, like the whole bit about two ex-husbands and an adopted son. I read a lot into that. I’m like, “Mmm, okay. So like, you had some failed relationships with men and then adopted your own kid.” That reads very queer to me.

Lucia Kelly: (Lucia laughs quietly and then sighs deeply) The Tegan in this episode is so good. I’m in love with how they did it. Tegan gets such a hard rap. It should be no surprise that she’s one of my absolute favorite classic companions. Even aside from the fact that she’s Australian, which just brings joy to my heart. Um ⁠— (Lucia breaks off laughing)

Talia Franks: Yeah. But you’re also into that gay shit and Tegan’s a very queer companion.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no. I adored everything about it. But, as is our want, we’ve started very wibbly wobbly. I would like to go a little bit back towards the beginning. Okay. I know what your answer is going to be, but do you wanna talk about Dan? Or do you wanna talk about The Master? (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Okay, so just real quick, talk about Dan. I’m really glad that he’s gone straight up at the beginning of the episode. I’m really happy about it. He was not needed in this episode. I know that you like him, but this episode had a lot going on in it. He was not necessary.

Talia Franks: He was tangential to the plot. He just wasn’t relevant. So I’m glad that he was gone at the beginning and that Thasmin had their time to shine. The Master had his time to shine. Ace and Tegan had their time to shine.

Talia Franks: Dan would’ve made it too busy. We don’t need this white man in our lives. I’m glad he’s gone and that’s all I’m gonna say about him. (Talia laughs)

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no, from a structural point of view, it makes complete sense. There is too much going on for Dan to be in the mix. I am still sad. What I’m annoyed about is they set up like, five different story hooks for him in The Halloween Apocalypse.

Lucia Kelly: There was so much going on there for Dan, and they used barely any of it. That’s what pisses me off more, is that the ongoing fandom judgment from jump has been that Dan is superfluous, that he’s not necessary, that it feels weird to introduce a new companion, that it feels as if they’re literally just doing it so that they can have a white man on the TARDIS.

Lucia Kelly: And all of that criticism deserves to have its time to like, be out and discussed. At the same time, if you are going to introduce a character like that, do it properly. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Well, see that’s why it annoys me is because they didn’t do it properly. He is completely superfluous. So the fact that they introduced all these arcs for him and then didn’t follow through makes him even more superfluous. Because they introduced all this shit for him and it’s not relevant and it’s not necessary cause they didn’t need to do it in the first place.

Talia Franks: But they did it anyway and then didn’t end up following through with it because they never could have because they never needed to. And if they hadn’t in the first place, it would’ve been fine. So that’s why he pisses me off, is because they introduced— like literally all he was good for is for making Thasmin realize their feelings for each other.

Talia Franks: He was there to be on the Thasmin train the whole time.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah.

Talia Franks: And I feel like you could have done that with a different character!

Lucia Kelly: Or have the Doctor and Yaz figure it out for themselves.

Talia Franks: Yeah. Or have like Vinder be that person. Like you didn’t need to introduce (Lucia says ooooo) you didn’t need to introduce both Dan and Vinder. Cause Vinder is a character that doesn’t have a whole lot of backstory, but he’s integrated really well into the series.

Talia Franks: He has just enough backstory that he’s interesting and like, you’re curious about his backstory, but to the extent that we know about his arc, it’s resolved enough in Flux that we’re curious about more from him, but we don’t really need more from him. You know what I mean?

Talia Franks: I feel like we could have had Vinder be a little bit of that person if we really needed to. We could have removed Dan, buffed up Vinder a bit, and it would’ve had almost the same effect. Obviously there would’ve had been a lot of changes, but yeah, there could have been things that were different.

Talia Franks: Speaking of Vinder, I’m very glad that my main man Vinder is back. He is fantastic and I loved in particular the way that coming back and calling from the Doctor is integrated with the Rasputin musical number.

Talia Franks: Oh my God. That musical number.

Talia Franks: So I was hanging out with my friend at the time, we were watching it together and it was hilarious. We were both about dying ’cause it’s like you knew that as soon as he was cast as Rasputin, that there was going to be fan edits of that song.

Talia Franks: But then they didn’t even need to do the fan edits cause they put it in the episode itself!

Lucia Kelly: The joy I have seen of people sharing that clip and like, the unadulterated joy of like ⁠—

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: ⁠— people yelling at each other, being like, “No, you don’t understand. This is completely unedited.”

Talia Franks: Yep.

Lucia Kelly: “This is exactly what was in the show.”

Talia Franks: “This is exactly what was in the show.” It’s giving End of the World Toxic, but better. (Talia and Lucia laugh)

Lucia Kelly: Honestly. Also, I have beef with the fandom. So many people are like, “The Rasputin thing wasn’t even necessary. That was just him being extra. Why is this Rasputin thing in here?” Do you guys not see the symbolism? Oh my God!

Talia Franks: The Master is made to be extra. The Master has always been extra. And also like Missy ⁠— I forget which one it was ⁠— but Missy also had a moment where she like, played a musical number and was dancing around. I forget which episode it was. But yeah, like it’s in the Master’s character ⁠— and then also John Simms Master did it too. There was like the, “Here comes the drums” scene in the ⁠—

Lucia Kelly: Yeah.

Talia Franks: Um. We’re gonna be talking about it in season three. We haven’t recorded that episode yet.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. But what I’m talking about specifically is that people are like, “Why did he choose Rasputin? Like, that’s such a weird choice.” I’m like, “No, it’s the perfect choice because of the layers of stuff that like ⁠—” Okay.

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: So. I’m about to go on my history rants, but ⁠—

Talia Franks: Yeah.

Lucia Kelly: ⁠Okay, so Rasputin was this historical figure who was instrumental like instrumentally important in Russia, right at the turn of the end of World War I and the fall of the Russian monarchy and like the leaps and bounds and connections in making like paralleling Rasputin and the royal family and the Master and the Doctor is just so beautiful.

Lucia Kelly: I adore it because there is so much ⁠— Like, I’m particularly in love with the connection it makes between the Russian Royal family and the Doctor because it plays into misconceptions of the Doctor so well. Because Tzar Nicholas the second and Anastasia and like Nikolai and all the family, because their end was so inhumane and tragic, the way that they died often overplays how terrible they were as monarchs. (Lucia laughs) And that colors a lot of how we view them. There’s a lot of sympathy and a lot of empathy for them that undercuts what led to that.

Lucia Kelly: And I think that’s such a brilliant tie to bring to the Doctor who also commits all kinds of atrocities but because we’re from their POV ⁠—

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm

Lucia Kelly: ⁠— and because, we’re given so much material and frameworks to view them sympathetically, to hold the Doctor accountable becomes the dissenting voice. And that just—

Talia Franks: Are you like actually comparing the Doctor to the Russian monarchy? Sorry, it’s just ⁠—

Lucia Kelly: Not ⁠—

Talia Franks: That just feels like going a bit far. (Talia giggles)

Lucia Kelly: What I’m saying—

Talia Franks: Like, I know the Doctor’s done shit but—

Lucia Kelly: What I’m saying is that there are layers to this, and parallels, and deliberate pulls on history ⁠—

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: ⁠— that were put specifically into the episode. Like there’s like—

Talia Franks: No, I get, I get what you’re saying. It’s just ⁠—

Lucia Kelly: Yeah!

Talia Franks: Let’s ⁠— Reality check.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. What I’m saying is that I get annoyed when people dismiss very deliberate, creative and symbolic choices.

Talia Franks: No, I got you.

Lucia Kelly: And it frustrates me.

Talia Franks: I got you.

Lucia Kelly: You could dismiss it out of hand and be like, “Oh, lol, the Master’s so funny.” Or you could be like, “Hey, maybe we should, respect writer’s time and like, think about, “Hey, that was a deliberate creative choice. Maybe we can pull some really cool analysis out of that. And think about things a little bit deeper.”

Talia Franks: Yeah. I loved the Master in this episode though. And it wasn’t just because he was sexy and unhinged. (Lucia laughs) It was ⁠— I mean, it was ⁠— It was because he was sexy and unhinged. Oh my God. Seriously. Sacha Dhawan is a threat to my asexuality. (Talia laughs)

Lucia Kelly: Okay. Answer me this. Answer me this. How is this the first rendition of the Master and the Doctor where they are played by actors of different genders and yet somehow this is the most queer rendition of them. Like, the Master did not know whether he wanted to fuck the Doctor, fuck with the Doctor, or fucking be the Doctor. (Talia laughs)

Lucia Kelly: And the answer was yes. The answer was yes. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: The answer was yes. Like, I swear, like Twelve and Missy were also different genders. But that was definitely like, a more heterosexual leaning relationship. Obviously like any relationship where the characters are queer is a queer relationship, but the Twelfth Doctor and Missy definitely fell into more gendered roles, I would say.

Talia Franks: I’m actually planning on, when I go to Gally in February, I’m gonna be giving a TARDIS Talk and it’s gonna be geared a lot towards how Thasmin is viewed differently as a Doctor/companion couple. Because, it’s a sapphic couple, right? With one character that is explicitly gender fluid and it’s a mixed race couple, so the two people in the couple are different races. Compared to Tenrose, which is a coded cishet couple and they’re two white people.

Talia Franks: So that’s actually a very different kind of relationship even though Tenrose and Thasmin are both shipped by a lot of people in the community. They’re seen very differently by people who don’t ship them because of the implications of that. I feel like similarly and I’m not really gonna be able to get into this in my talk because it’s only like, a 10-minute talk, but similarly Whittaker’s Doctor and Dhawan’s Master are very queer. I feel like because Jodie Whittaker’s Doctor is much more explicitly gender fluid and explicitly queer as a Doctor than Capaldi’s Doctor. It feels very cis coded.

Talia Franks: Partially because he was a regeneration before the Doctor regenerated into a woman. So when he was the Doctor, it was like, always a man. And also he’s just very cis coded in general. I don’t really know anything about Peter Capaldi himself, but I know that as far as presentation as the Doctor goes, it’s a very masculine presentation. It’s a very cis coded presentation. I don’t really know anything about Peter Capaldi’s identity, so I can’t say whether or not he’s cis. I can’t say how he identifies, but I know that as the Doctor, he presents very cis coded, even though the Doctor is canonically gender fluid.

Talia Franks: Meanwhile, Missy. Missy is a Master who goes by Missy, the Mistress, instead of the Master. She very clearly like, identifies as a woman and like, rejects her identity as “the Master,” as a man.

Talia Franks: When she like, switches gender, rather than Jodie Whittaker’s Doctor who like, embraces that fluidity and like, doesn’t really care about the fact that she used to present is male and like, cause you see it in like, Demons of the Punjab, she’s just like “all my references to like, gender swapping are like, in jest” or whatever. The Thirteenth Doctor is very comfortable in her gender fluidity.

Talia Franks: Whereas, you can tell that Missy is very uncomfortable in her gender fluidity. She’s just like, “No, I’m a woman now.” And it’s very strict. And then you see also, with Sacha Dhawan, he’s very like, uncomfortable in his identity. He’s very uncomfortable in who he is. I feel like, for him, becoming a man again is actually a downgrade.

Talia Franks: Like he’s very upset about having regenerated into a male form again. When he regenerates out of being like, the Doctor again, he’s so upset. He’s like, “Don’t let me go back to being me.” (Lucia: I know!) Like, the layers of self loathing. I feel like the Master loved being Missy so much and they hate themself as Sacha Dhawan’s Master and like, there’s a lot to be said about how much they hate themself now that they’re a man of color. And there’s a whole like, layer of stuff about that and like the racial undertones of that, and how much they hate being a man of color versus being a white woman.

Talia Franks: But for me, I very much read it as gender dysphoria. When they were Missy they felt very accepted and loved by the Doctor, as the Twelfth Doctor, and the Twelfth Doctor, like very clearly loved Missy.

Talia Franks: That was the closest they got back to their old friendship, and now, as like, Sacha Dhawan’s Master, he just hates himself so, so much.

Lucia Kelly: And that, sort of, conversation is, sort of, continued in the costume choices, which I adored. So there’s a interview with Sacha from 2020, which I’ll try to find, but he basically talked about how they chose the costume for the Master ⁠—

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: ⁠— and how he was very explicit in wanting to take different aspects from past Doctor costumes.

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: So in particular, he really wanted to have the lapels that the First Doctor had so he could stick his thumbs in and rest them there. And there are other choices there too. And then you see that taken a step further again when he steps out of the TARDIS with that mishmash outfit with literally like, something from every single Doctor.

Lucia Kelly: And it just ⁠—

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: It’s such a sort of, tragic continuation of that storyline with Missy that it feels like since regenerating, like it’s this need to become more and more like the Doctor, to literally become the Doctor ⁠—

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: ⁠— has become such a priority for the Master ⁠—

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: ⁠— in a way that I’m not sure even he fully registers.

Talia Franks: Yeah.

Lucia Kelly: And it’s just ⁠— His little hood! His little earring! I loved it, (Lucia laughs) but also… my heart.

Talia Franks: Yeah. It’s just really ⁠— Like, I love the Master, I love seeing him on screen, but also it hurts to see how much he’s hurting and to see how much he lashes out at other people.

Talia Franks: I don’t know, I just wanna give him a hug. I know that sounds ⁠— Like, he’s like, an evil homicidal maniac, but ⁠—

Lucia Kelly: But no. I don’t think it’s outta line ’cause Sacha Dhawan brings such an empathy to that character.

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: He plays it to perfection ⁠—

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: ⁠— in terms of finding that line and finding that balance.

Lucia Kelly: He is both entirely sympathetic and utterly unhinged and dangerous. And putting him and Jodie Whittaker against each other is just beautiful.

Talia Franks: It’s just like, (Talia makes a chef’s kiss noise) It’s magic.

Lucia Kelly: The scene in the lecture room. Holy shit. The way that they both are demanding the space is ⁠— Like, Jodie fucking Whittaker.

Lucia Kelly: The glare. The power she holds in that scene. My entire body was goosebumps. It’s wild.

Talia Franks: Yeah. And the way that he says to Yaz, like, “Well now she can’t go. She knows I don’t make empty threats, but now that I’ve trapped her. I know her too well.”

Talia Franks: And also later when she says, “We used to be friends,” and I’m like, “Oh!”

Talia Franks: And also like, the callbacks. When he’s like, “oh, a UNIT bunker,” and I forget which character it was, was like, “he can’t get up to much down there.” And I’m like, “Have you seen like ⁠—,” Which episode was it? Which episode was it? ⁠— It was a Third Doctor episode with Jo Grant. It’s the one with the sword fight. ‘Cause he was in the UNIT bunker for a long time. It’s a famous episode. It’s the one with the Sea Devils and the Master teams up with the Sea Devils. I think it might just be called the Sea Devils. Basically the Master was trapped in a UNIT bunker for a while and he basically like, converts the people that were supposed to be like, detaining him.

Talia Franks: And then he teams up with the Sea Devils, and escapes, and he and the Doctor have a massive sword fight. But basically the Master can get up to a lot of shit in a UNIT bunker. I think it might just be called the Sea Devils. I did a whole livetweet of it. You can read it on our website actually.

Talia Franks: We have a page that links to all of our live tweets. Lucia has stopped doing live tweets ’cause she hates them but I still do them occasionally.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no I can’t do it. I’m so sorry, (Talia laughs) I just need to focus on the episode. I can’t be entertaining at the same time. But oh my Gosh, it’s so, the way that he gets out, like the fact that he preys on Tegan’s loneliness! Like I love it. It’s perfect. In terms of understanding the Doctor and how they operate and the emotional distress that she is perfectly happy to leave companions in.

Talia Franks: I feel like it’s especially cruel though to do it to Tegan considering what he did to her aunt.

Talia Franks: Like the taunt about “How’s Auntie Vanessa?”

Lucia Kelly: It’s brutal. Also though, I’m a little confused because we’ve confirmed in this episode that it’s reversible because that’s how the Cyberman plan works in the first place.

Talia Franks: Yeah.

Lucia Kelly: So… they’re saveable. Let’s not throw a funeral yet. Like, when he is like, “Oh, be sure to tell the seismologists’ loved ones —”

Talia Franks: See, but that’s actually the worst part for me, is that he confirms that it’s reversible, which means that all of those people that they just assumed were dead, are not actually dead. Which I think is the cruelest thing for him to do to them is to confirm that all these people that they thought he had killed are not actually dead.

Lucia Kelly: I’m just hoping that somewhere along the line, the Doctor is able to bring Aunt Vanessa back because Lord knows Tegan needs the support and I’m sure Vanessa would love to no longer be a tiny doll. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Yeah.

Talia Franks: I just wanted to note the parallels between the Quranx being a being of immense power and potential who was really trapped and used for their power, as a vessel, to power others. Like, a child who was used as a vessel to nefarious ends that the Doctor had to rescue and then rescuing them caused the Doctor’s death.

Talia Franks: And I think that’s a really interesting parallel to the Doctor themself who was kidnapped and used for the Time Lords to gain their power of regeneration. And I just think that’s a really interesting parallel, especially when you consider that the Doctor says that the Quranx took the form of something that the Doctor was most wanting to protect, which ended up being a child and specifically a child who was a child of color, which I think is really interesting.

Talia Franks: That, when given something to protect the Doctor most wants to protect a child. That’s really interesting and powerful to me. Especially when you think about how they’ve done studies of like, Black boys are seen as older than white boys of a similar age. Like, people will see pictures and they’ll have to guess the ages and they will guess that white boys are younger than Black boys. Like they will see them as older than they are.

Talia Franks: And that’s often like when you see stories of how white terrorists are seen as “Oh, he was just a kid.”

Lucia Kelly: Mm-hmm.

Talia Franks: Whereas like people of color are labeled as dangerous and thugs and terrible. And be the exact same age.

Talia Franks: It was just really powerful to me, to see this child, who’s a person of color, to be seen as something to be valued and protected. Children of color are not always seen as something to be protected by white people. So that’s where I saw it.

Lucia Kelly: I find what you took from it really interesting and it’s an angle that I didn’t see. I was really struck also by the fact that they cast a young Black child as the sort of protective screening for the Quaranx.

Lucia Kelly: I was struck by two things. One, it’s wild to me that they introduced this idea that it’s specifically a illusionary field that makes you automatically want to protect it, which to me would mean that it would look different to everyone.

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: Like, it would look different depending on who looked at it.

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: And that is such a like, good character and plot beat to jump on.

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: And there could have been some really cool stuff where like, the Doctor and Yaz saw different things.

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: And that could also be used to explore their relationship as well in terms of what they value.

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Talia Franks: Um,

Lucia Kelly: but obviously that episode was jam packed and we didn’t have a lot of time to do any of that kind of stuff.

Lucia Kelly: It’s just weird that they introduced that element and then didn’t capitalise on it.

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: Um, And the other element that was ⁠— it’s ⁠— I find it really interesting that you used the word valuable to describe the Quaranx cause I was really struck by how a lot of the language around it was referring to it almost like a tool, especially ⁠— Like, it’s so explicit with the, the literal chains holding this child down.

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: And just the sort of incredibly straightforward metaphor and we don’t have time, but there’s a history of Black people and Black bodies being used specifically within the sci-fi and fantasy genre as power sources and like, being connected to electricity and being quite literally utilized.

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: Um, and the parallels there between how Black bodies are seen as power sources and batteries as opposed to people.

Talia Franks: Yeah. Yeah. Cause that was the other thing that I was gonna say is that on the flip side of how I appreciated that from the Doctor’s point of view, what was worth protecting would be a child, and specifically what is worth protecting is a Black child. The reason I was specifically saying a child of color because it’s very clear that this child was mixed (Talia laughs) and like I don’t know the entire ethnic background of this particular child. I think it’s really important to recognize that there’s a diversity of ethnic backgrounds. And also, it’s a very young child, so I don’t know how specifically they identify and I don’t know how their parents identify.

Talia Franks: But also, there is the thing of like, the Quaranx was referred to as cargo. It’s possible that the other people weren’t viewing the Quaranx as a child. They were viewing them as I don’t know, like a pile of gold or something, because they weren’t viewing them as an autonomous being. They were just viewing them as something super valuable or something that they wanted to protect. But they view the Quaranx as something to own and it’s only really the Doctor who’s viewing the Quaranx as someone. Whereas the Master and everyone else is really viewing the Quaranx as something rather than someone. and It’s really the Doctor who’s viewing them as a person.

Talia Franks: Especially like seeing them in chains. It’s very much giving slavery and like ,very much using the Black body versus actually valuing someone like the Doctor clearly does. I did definitely take note of the narrative choices and aside from all that, I did really appreciate that after they established that the Quaranx was not actually a child, that it was the Doctor who was placing that on them, I appreciated that they then turned it into a big glowy ball of stuff so that we didn’t have to like, deal with the trauma of seeing a chained up black child for the entire episode because that would’ve sucked.

Lucia Kelly: Yep. Also, the fact that it freed itself and was to be understood, just floating around the universe, doing its own thing now, which love that, love that.

Talia Franks: Love that for them. Love that for them.

Lucia Kelly: And they got to burn that thing to the motherfucking ground.

Talia Franks: Yep.

Lucia Kelly: Also love that.

Talia Franks: Love that for them.

Ad Break

Talia Franks: So two more things I just wanna make sure we get. I wanna talk about AI Doctor and I wanna make sure we make time for Thasmin. So which one do you wanna talk about first?

Lucia Kelly: We’re definitely gonna talk about Thasmin so let’s talk about the AI. Uh — (Lucia makes noises of disapproval and discomfort)

Talia Franks: Okay. I loved AI Doctor.

Talia Franks: I thought I loved, I know that you don’t like AIs, but I thought AI Doctor was great. I thought AI Doctor was so fun. So, to backtrack actually, I was really hype when we first saw the other Doctors in the Doctor’s consciousness and the Doctor got to talk to their past selves.

Talia Franks: I thought that was the only way that we were gonna see the past Doctors.. So then when we saw the past Doctors manifest themselves as the AI and talk to Tegan and Ace, I lost my shit. I absolutely lost my shit. So I’m very hype about it. I started tearing up during some of those conversations.

Lucia Kelly: The way that the AI is used, I don’t have an issue with. It’s basically pulling the same stuff they did at the end of Flux, right? Being like “Well, the Doctor needs to be in these multiple different places, so how do we make that work?” It’s serving the same purpose, right?

Talia Franks: It’s just basically making it a multi-Doctor episode without really making it a multi-Doctor episode.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. And I also absolutely adore the fact that they utilize that both from a structural and plot point of view, and also from a character point of view, in terms of giving both Teagan and Ace that closure that they both clearly needed.

Lucia Kelly: I teared up when the Doctor called Teagan Braveheart again. And when ⁠— Oh God ⁠— when Seven says that “they’re ace.” and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, my heart.” Like, that’s all beautiful. That’s all gorgeous.

Talia Franks: I also really loved how they were able to use the Fugitive Doctor to trick the Master.

Talia Franks: I thought that was brilliant, especially when she’s like, “You didn’t even check for a hologram? I thought you were smart.” (Lucia and Talia giggle)

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no, from a structural, plot, character point of view, love everything about the AI. My thing about AI specifically is consent. (Lucia slaps the table for emphasis, giving a short laugh) Basically I have a really big issue with the fact that the Doctor put this AI in Yaz, Teagan, and Ace without their consent, without their knowledge.

Lucia Kelly: And then like, we have absolutely no confirmation that they ever took it out again? Um, So ⁠— And ⁠— We were talking in the, in DMing each other. You found that idea really sweet. I find it horrific.

Talia Franks: I didn’t say I found it sweet. I said that I ⁠—

Lucia Kelly: You did the big eyes as an emoji reaction. Which ⁠—

Talia Franks: Yeah. I thought that it would ⁠— Wait did I do the big eyes as an emoji reaction? I thought I did the thinking face as an emoji reaction.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. No, it’s this big “Aw, so cu ⁠—”, like it’s the emoji I associate with like ⁠—

Talia Franks: No, I thought I did the thinking ⁠— I thought I did the thinking face as an emoji reaction. I meant to do the thinking face.

Lucia Kelly: No, it’s ⁠— It’s the “awwwww” emoji.

Talia Franks: No, I’m meant thinking face. I just put it, I put it with, they’re both frequent em ⁠— emojis that I use. So I’m gonna fix that. (Lucia laughs) For posterity.

Talia Franks: It’s supposed to be the thinking face. Anyway.

Lucia Kelly: Okay. Anyway.

Talia Franks: I just clicked the wrong emoji. They’re both emojis I use a lot. Anyway, the point is I think that would actually be a cool idea. I don’t think the Doctor would leave it in without asking. The Doctor made time for fricking ice cream. I think they would’ve made time for asking if they wanted the AI out.

Lucia Kelly: I hope so. I do love that it’s called out just a little bit because when Yaz is like, “You didn’t think to tell us?” and then the AI is like, “Whoa, this is a big reaction!” Like, the awkwardness, the lamp shading on how inadequate an apology it was and how shitty it was for the Doctor to do that? Loved that.

Talia Franks: Yeah, I think definitely, like for me, given the way that Yaz had that reaction, I think if Yaz, Teagan, and Ace wanted it removed, they would’ve asked the Doctor to remove it.

Lucia Kelly: I just, I don’t fuck with AI. I don’t fuck with it.

Talia Franks: I know you don’t fuck with AI. That’s why I said like when that’s I know you don’t fuck with it.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah.

Talia Franks: However, I think that if they didn’t ask the Doctor to remove it ⁠— which if I had an AI of the Doctor implanted in my shoulder, I would not ask the Doctor to remove it, cause that’s really fucking useful.

Talia Franks: Like, Hello? Tegan was in like, a serious situation, didn’t know what to do, AI Doctor just popped up and was like, “Hey, just press these buttons and then you’ll defeat the Cybermen.” I’m sorry, that’s really fucking ⁠— that’s more useful than Jarvis. I’m sorry. Sorry to this Jarvis, but, seriously to have an AI Doctor just hanging out with you over your shoulder whenever you need them. I think it would be really fucking cool.

Lucia Kelly: But it’s not ⁠— It’s not just hanging out. It’s like, becoming part of you, is also a thing, ’cause like the Doctor in that same scene is talking about like, “I’m looking through your eyes. I’m using your nervous system. Like, I’m taking in ⁠— Your sensory input is now mine.” And also, how sentient is that thing and how aware is it? And what activates it? There’s a part of you that’s consistently under observation. I don’t fuck with that.

Talia Franks: Yeah, I don’t care. I’d be cool with it. I’d enjoy it, honestly. It’d be like having a friend with me everywhere I go. I’m a deeply lonely person. (Talia and Lucia giggle)

Lucia Kelly: So am I. I still need my alone time. I need to know that there’s no one else around me sometimes.

Talia Franks: No. I need to ⁠— Well, I’d need someone like watching my back all the time, like when I’m sleeping? Like, what if someone wanted to like, attack me while I’m sleeping? Then like the Doctor could pop up and then wake me up or threaten the person who’s attacking me. They wouldn’t know it’s a hologram.

Lucia Kelly: We are deeply different people.

Talia Franks: We are deeply different people. Yes. (Lucia and Talia laugh)

Lucia Kelly: Alright.

Talia Franks: I’ve said this before. I would love to have a little Doctor hanging out in my shoulder, like watching my every move, watching out for me, like a little guardian angel!

Lucia Kelly: Anyway. Thasmin.

Talia Franks: Thasmin. I loved this ending for Thasmin.

Talia Franks: I know a lot of people didn’t like it. But the only thing I wish is that I wish they’d had a hug. I’m just gonna pretend they had a hug off screen. I know that Jodie Whittaker and Mandip Gill hugged each other. So I’m just gonna pretend that Yaz and the Doctor also hooked each other.

Talia Franks: Did you peep the fact that when Yaz was fireman carrying the Doctor, she like kissed her on the cheek?

Lucia Kelly: I sure did.

Talia Franks: It was ⁠—

Lucia Kelly: I sure did.

Talia Franks: It was so cute. And like, Yaz earlier was like, “make time.” And then the Doctor did make time.

Talia Franks: She was like, mid regeneration and she’s still like, “What flavor ice cream do you want?” And then they’re like sitting on the top of the TARDIS looking at the earth.

Lucia Kelly: Oh my God! The tenderness in that scene! Jodie!

Talia Franks: Yeah. It’s a very deeply romantic ship. And this was a very deeply romantic scene and I know that a lot of people aren’t gonna see it that way because there was no big dramatic kiss at the scene of the regeneration. There was no declaration of “I love you. “

Talia Franks: There was no Yasmin Khan fading into the distance, but like, I feel like this was an even better resolution than any of that. This was like, the Doctor and Yaz, parting on their own terms. This was Yaz, not being stranded on a parallel Earth, not losing all her memory, not getting trapped in the past, not being turned into like, a puddle of space oil, traveling through the cosmos or whatever. She’s just like, walking out, and not even walking out in her own terms in anger, just walking out on her own terms, being like, “I’m confident in myself. I know that the Doctor’s gonna be okay. They’re just gonna be different and I’m gonna like, walk away” and the Doctor is not one for saying goodbyes.

Talia Franks: And even though Yaz wants that goodbye, wants that full closure, she’s not going to insist on it because she knows it’s not what the Doctor wants. So she says, “Let’s not say goodbye.” She’s giving the Doctor what she needs ’cause the Doctor’s given her what she wants.

Talia Franks: Like, she’s made time for her. She’s made time for that one last ice cream. That one last looking at the big giant earth and space. They’ve not exchanged their “I love you,”‘s or whatever, but they had at the end of Legend and the Sea Devils, that beach scene, they had that heart-to-heart conversation where the Doctor said “If it was with anyone, it would be with you, but I can’t do that.” And Yaz is respecting the Doctor’s boundaries. She’s saying like, “I know you can’t do that. I know you can’t be with me. We’ve had that conversation already.” These are the last moments she has with the Doctor. She’s not going to bring that up again.

Talia Franks: She’s just going to enjoy the last moments with the Doctor in the same way that they’ve always had that back and forth, had that camaraderie, and that’s just a really beautiful ending for me. And like, their last moments with each other are just seeing each other.

Talia Franks: Yaz doesn’t wanna see the Doctor die, becoming another person. The Doctor doesn’t want to have to put Yaz through that either.

Talia Franks: It’s just a really beautiful sequence for me. And I just really appreciated the whole thing. And I thought it was a really good send off and it left me feeling really full. And I really appreciated it.

Talia Franks: I knew Yaz was gonna be okay. The Doctor’s gonna be the Doctor, their version of okay anyway. And, yeah, it just left me feeling really good at the end of the episode.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no I would definitely argue that the way that Thasmin ended, like you said, a lot of people were kind of rooting for that big, dramatic, romantic moment.

Lucia Kelly: I think the fact that it was a series of small gestures instead shows a level of maturity and growth from the Doctor’s point of view. Like, a lot of the problems that we’ve talked about in terms of introducing this element of the Doctor as a romantic candidate for a companion in the new series is that there is an inherent level of immaturity and refusal to acknowledge power dynamics there that make those relationships inherently unstable and, to overuse a phrase, problematic.

Lucia Kelly: The fact that Thasmin ends on such mutual terms is really good and really beautiful.

Talia Franks: Uh huh.

Lucia Kelly: And it also, I don’t know, there was something about how that final goodbye in the park was framed and shot that reminded me so viscerally of School Reunion and when Ten says goodbye to Sarah Jane.

Talia Franks: Absolutely. It was the same for me, also.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. And I think that was a beautiful choice and I’m really happy with it.

Talia Franks: Speaking of parallels, I really love the parallel between having all the extended fam around the TARDIS and the parallel between that and Journey’s End.

Talia Franks: I thought that was a really beautiful parallel. I really love when Who calls back on itself like that.

Talia Franks: And it didn’t even do it explicitly, but just the idea of the Doctor having this extended family and it’s the same thing right? Like that scene with Yaz saying goodbye reminded you of School Reunion. But also, that reminds me of, at the end of Journey’s End, how Yaz is going off in the park but she meets up with Dan and Graham.

Talia Franks: The Doctor ends up dropping off Yaz at the companion support group. Like, I don’t know if she knows about it, I don’t know if it’s intentional or not, but she ends up dropping off Yaz with all the rest of the companions and at the end of Journey’s End a bunch of companions leave the TARDIS together and they’re going off in a park together.

Talia Franks: And like, the idea is that they’re going off as a group and that they’re like, staying in touch. And so that’s a really nice parallel for me because at the end of Journey’s End there’s no follow up with that. You don’t actually like, get the confirmation that the companions really stuck together.

Talia Franks: You see a little bit of it because like, Martha does show up in Torchwood. But the really great thing here is that you have that whole companion support group. You really see like the cohesiveness of it. Like, these are all the companions together. But also the fact that all the companions in the support group, except for Yaz, Graham, and Dan, are classic companions, really hammers home the fact that terrible things happening to the companions when they leave is a Nu Who phenomenon.

Talia Franks: Because all the companions that are modern companions in that support group are Thirteenth Doctor companions, ’cause the only companions that are candidates for that support group, that aren’t Thirteenth Doctor Companions, are Martha, and I think it was confirmed that Bill went back to Earth in like a Extended Universe thing. It’s confirmed that Bill left her space girlfriend and went back to Earth. But like, it was literally like, had to be ret-conned that like Bill was okay and was able to go back to Earth.

Talia Franks: Terrible things happen to Modern Who companions, but that is a new phenomenon. All those classic companions were able to be there. And there probably would’ve been more if they weren’t all so old, that sounds bad, (Lucia giggles) but if there weren’t so many classic companions that were like, older now and like, probably, I think some of them aren’t acting anymore, some of them have sadly passed. And also the fact that there were a lot of classic companions that were like literally old as in they came from other eras or they came from other planets, so like, they wouldn’t be able to be on Earth. Or they were Time Lords like Romana.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, I mean they got Ian there, which was so beautiful.

Talia Franks: Also the moment where he was like, “The Doctor is a woman?”

Lucia Kelly: Yeah! I actually really liked that. I loved his delivery of it.

Talia Franks: Yeah. I loved his delivery because he was surprised, but he wasn’t like, mad about it. He was just like, “Oh, cool.” I love seeing other companions reactions to the fact like, “Oh, the Doctor got an upgrade,”

Talia Franks: But yeah, no, we can talk about the bad thing now if you want. (Lucia laughs)

Lucia Kelly: “The bad thing.” What a way to frame it.

Talia Franks: I just wanted to make sure that we talked about the companion support group because I’m so happy about the companion support group.

Lucia Kelly: I wanna talk specifically about the actual Jodie’s sendoff.

Talia Franks: No. Okay. Yeah, So Jodie’s sendoff was good. I loved like the fact that it was at sunrise, the like, “Doctor, whoever you’re about to be, tag, you’re it.” I loved that.

Lucia Kelly: I loved how calm the regeneration was. I feel like we’ve come to view regeneration as an inherently traumatic and violent event.

Talia Franks: Yeah.

Lucia Kelly: And that’s certainly a way to view it that makes sense because it is ⁠— you regenerate when you die. There is an element of violence there. I loved that it was actually, for Jodie, a moment of reflection, and peace, and connecting back with nature like the quote she says, “the bloomiest bloom,” It’s actually from an interview with Dennis Potter who was dying of cancer at the time, and he ⁠— it’s a gorgeous interview. I’ll link it in our Twitter so people can read it. But it’s talking about a lot of these themes and conversations and the reflections he had at the end of his life and in particular connecting back with nature. Um, And I don’t know, it, it really got to me, it was so ⁠— and I hope that it will be indicative of more peaceful regenerations to come.

Lucia Kelly: I think that it could be a really beautiful step forward.

Talia Franks: Yeah, I also just wanna, I just wanna note, she regenerated because of the Master. Twelfth Doctor also regenerated because of the Master. Well, he technically got shot by a Cyberman but he regenerated in a Master story. 10th Doctor regenerated in a Master story, technically because of the radiation and Wilf.

Talia Franks: But that all happened because of the Master. So I’m saying like Ten, Twelve, and Thirteen all regenerated because of the Master.

Lucia Kelly: Yep. But we can’t talk about that, cause guess what? (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Although actually, Okay. So, I will say, while I am annoyed. I’m actually not as annoyed as I could be.

Lucia Kelly: Interesting.

Talia Franks: Okay, so here’s why I’m not actually that mad. Because it’s the 60th anniversary year and I feel like, 60th anniversary, people are going to expect a lot of fan service. They’re going to expect a lot of big production. It’s gonna be a very heavy burden to carry and that is a lot to put on the shoulders with a brand new Doctor. ‘Cause Ncuti Gatwa is an amazing actor, but he’s already got a lot against him from the beginning. Jo Martin is the first Black Doctor I wanna own that. She’s amazing.

Talia Franks: However, Ncuti Gatwa’s going to be the first Black Doctor who’s a main Doctor. He’s also an immigrant ⁠— like people say he is like, not from there, even though I’m pretty sure he like, grew up there his whole life ⁠— So, the point is like, people are already upset about that. People are upset about the fact that he’s Black. People are upset about the fact that he doesn’t have as long and illustrious history as David Tennant or Peter Capaldi.

Talia Franks: People are really pissed off about him, just like, existing as the Doctor in the first place. So trying to make his first year as the Doctor be the 60th anniversary year would be kind of a shit show for him. It would be just a lot of pressure to put on a brand-new Doctor in the first place, let alone the first Black Doctor, the first immigrant Doctor, the first Doctor who’s so young. He’s literally the youngest person who’s ever been cast as the Doctor. He’s also the first millennial Doctor and you know how many people hate millennials. He, he basically has so many stuff stacked against him. I’m not mad about the fact that there’s not like, a cold transition.

Talia Franks: I think David Tennant has a lot of star power. He’s the most well known of all Doctors. I think people, especially all the people who have hated Jodie Whittaker’s season, have hated all that. They’re gonna want their David Tennant security blanket back, for a little while, before we can like, give them more change.

Talia Franks: And I’m like, “Okay, they can have their David Tennant security blanket back for three episodes and then we can go back to having the kind of Doctor Who that I really enjoy.”

Talia Franks: And the thing is too, I really like David Tennant, I really like Catherine Tate. Ten and Donna is one of my all-time favorite companion pairings.

Talia Franks: Like, I feel like they are really well together. And if this is going to fix Donna’s arc, which I hated how it ended, I’m not gonna be mad about it, okay? I’m not gonna be mad about it, that Donna gets her memory back and we fixed that shit show that was her ending. I’m actually gonna be really pleased.

Talia Franks: So, I am not actually as pissed off about this as I could be. And I think it’ll give Ncuti Gatwa a nice clean slate to start as the 15th Doctor.

Talia Franks: I can understand objectively the necessity for this. However, I am pissed off (Lucia laughs) that there is a necessity for this.

Talia Franks: I am desirous of a world in which we could have gone straight from a woman Doctor to a person of color Doctor. I am mad as hell that we don’t live in that kinda world. However, I can objectively recognize that we do not live in that world and that this is the best course of action to set up Ncuti Gatwa for his best possible ⁠— T o set him up as best as we possibly can for a life as the Fifteenth Doctor, this is the best way to do it. Makes me mad as hell, but I recognize that this is the best way to do it. That’s me and my soapbox.

Lucia Kelly: Yep. No, like, you’ve said ⁠— You’ve said everything that I was gonna say, like, um (Lucia laughs) um, this is a really smart marketing choice and that’s what it is. This is officially saying goodbye to Chibnall, this is a signal to people who have not been watching the show, who have fallen off since Moffatt, since Chibnall. This is the security blanket. This is the, “everything’s going to be okay now.” And it fucking sucks.

Talia Franks: Yep.

Lucia Kelly: Again, I also love David Tennant. I think he’s a brilliant actor and I love for him that he gets to keep coming back. Cause ⁠— (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: But also, he’s had his time and it should be Ncuti’s time.

Talia Franks: Yeah. I’m not gonna lie, I did actually think the “I know these teeth” line was kind of cute. (Talia and Lucia laugh)

Lucia Kelly: I also think bringing Ten slash, quote unquote “Fourteen”, slash ⁠— I’ve seen so many attempted names to try ⁠— what are we going to call this Tennant? Like ⁠—

Talia Franks: Tenteen?

Lucia Kelly: Tenteen. Tenthree. I’ve seen Four-Ten. Like, it’s a wild—

Talia Franks: I think Tenthree is actually, I think is actually my favorite. Although I thought Tenteen was fun.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. I think this could also be, as much as it is just blatant marketing shtick. I think it could also be a really interesting character space to explore ⁠— because as we’ve talked about, Ten is one of the most ⁠emotionally avoidant and therefore presenting as immature Doctors of the Modern Who? And if we can use the fact that the Doctor has brought back this face for a reason, sort of paralleling that to casting Capaldi as the Doctor, as this sort of ⁠—

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: ⁠— visual recognition and memory. If we can tie that to real concrete, sustained growth for the Doctor. This could be my favorite arc.

Talia Franks: Yeah.

Lucia Kelly: If we can actually use that to really dig deep into the emotional psyche of the Doctor and work through some of their shit. I’ll never say another bad word against it. So if that’s where they’re going with it? I love it. If it is just purely fan service, I’ll be disappointed.

 (Transition wobbles)

Talia Franks: So is this episode funky, fabulous, or foul?

Lucia Kelly: Fabulous.

Talia Franks: Fabulous. Absolutely fabulous. (Lucia repeatedly gasps with laughter) I know it wasn’t really a question, like I feel like it was not actually a question, but it had to be established. (Talia laughs) Like, you know, it’s, it’s just part of our formula. We have to say it.

Lucia Kelly: Mm-hmm. But yeah. No, no, no, no.

Talia Franks: We have to say the thing out loud. And the thing is that this episode was Fabulous.

Lucia Kelly: Fabulous.

Talia Franks: I cried. (Lucia lets out a small burst of laughter) I was like ⁠—

Lucia Kelly: I teared up. Which is big for me. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Yeah. I mean, I didn’t actually cry, but like, my soul was overcome and like, I was overcome with emotion.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah.

Talia Franks: And like it was raining. So the tears ⁠— the sky was crying. The sky was crying for me.

Lucia Kelly: But yeah, no. Fabulous. Fabulous, fabulous, fabulous, fabulous, fabulous, fabulous, fabulous, fabulous.

Talia Franks: So much fabulous. So much fabulous. How could it not be fabulous? Jo Martin’s in it. It was fabulous. No, but seriously, like the acting! Honestly, once we review this episode for real, I’m gonna convince you to let me give the acting a six. It’s gonna happen. It’s gonna happen. It was so good. It was so, so good.

Talia Franks: Anyway, that’s all. That’s all I had to say about that. It was FABULOUS. FAB U LOUS. Chef’s Kiss.

Talia Franks: Amazing.

(Transition wobbles)

Talia Franks: Yeah, so I think that’s basically everything I wanted to say about this episode. This has been a very long minisode. We are going to talk more about our thoughts about Tenthree and the trailer for what’s happening in 2023 in our next minisode. Which is actually gonna be minisode ’cause the trailer is only 15 seconds long.

Talia Franks: So, I doubt we’ll be able to turn that into an hour. So, that’s gonna be coming soon. I know that we said season three was gonna come out on November 3rd. That was very ambitious of us sweet summer children that we were. We do have another bonus episode recorded, actually. It was supposed to go out before this. That actually doesn’t even have Lucia on it.

Lucia Kelly: Mm-hmm.

Talia Franks: No, it doesn’t. It has a surprise special guest that you’ve actually already heard before. That is gonna sound kind of outdated because it was recorded before Power of the Doctor.

Talia Franks: But that’s gonna come out probably sometime in November. And then our actual season three will be coming out in December.

Talia Franks: But! Exciting news. You probably saw it in the show notes, so this is not really a surprise to those of you who read the show notes, but we have a Patreon now!

Lucia Kelly: Woo!

Talia Franks: Yeah. So, if you would like to become patrons, which we would like for you to become patrons, we would appreciate it. You can join our Patreon. You’ll gain access to our fledgling Discord where currently it’s us, our patrons, and then we are also inviting people who are guests on the podcast to join the Patreon Discord. Not all guests will be joining the Discord but people who are guests are invited to join the Discord. So some guests are part of the Discord.

Talia Franks: Head on over to patreon.com/wibblypod and please support us. We really appreciate it.

Lucia Kelly: Thank you. Yes, please. Would love to get paid to do this. It’s a labor of love, but we would love to also get paid.

Talia Franks: Yeah, it’s a labor of love. And also, I have a part-time job, but I uh, this is most of what I do and I don’t get paid for it.

Lucia Kelly: You’re also paying for my new mic setup, which would be… stunning. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Yeah. Once we have patrons and we have revenue we will at release a financial disclosure of what exactly gets paid for with Patreon.

Lucia Kelly: Anyway. Thank you so much for staying with us and listening along. We’re gonna go now, but the next episode where we talk about the trailer should be coming out literally so, so soon.

Talia Franks: Um, yeah. We’ll probably release it just like a couple days after this one, so ⁠—

Lucia Kelly: You’ll be hearing our dulcet tones in your delighted ears very soon.

Talia Franks: And then the other bonus episode will come out in a couple weeks and then Season Three will definitely, maybe, be coming out in December.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah!

Talia Franks: Definitely, maybe, probably. We are gonna talk about Martha soon! It’s gonna happen! (Lucia laughs) And we have a special guest for that episode. We really do. We promise.

Lucia Kelly: Yep. It’s gonna be fun. It’s gonna be cool. Anyway, take care of yourselves and we’ll see you next time.

Lucia and Talia together: Bye!

Lucia Kelly: Thank you for listening to The Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Podcast.

Talia Franks: We hope you enjoyed this adventure with us through space and time.

Lucia Kelly: You can find us elsewhere on the internet on Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram @WibblyPod. Follow us for more Wibbly Wobbly content.

Talia Franks: You can find out more information about us and our content on wibblywobblytimeywimey.net, and full transcripts for episodes at wibblywobblytimeywimey.net/transcripts.

Lucia Kelly: If you’d like to get in touch with us, you can also send us an email at wibblywobblytimeywimeypod@gmail.com.

Talia Franks: Please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and other platforms as it helps other people find us and our content.

Lucia Kelly: If you’d like to support us, you can send us a donation at paypal.me/wibblypod

Talia Franks: Special thanks to our editor, Dee who has been a vital member of the Wibbly Wobbly Team.

Lucia Kelly: That’s all for now. Catch you in the time vortex!