3.01 The Runaway Bride (S03E00) feat. Lark Malakai Grey of Hashtag Ruthless Productions Public Release Transcript

Talia Franks: Hello and welcome to the Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey podcast.

Lucia Kelly: I’m Lucia Kelly, expert at applied analysis and stop bleeping me!

Talia Franks: And I’m Talia Franks, media critic, fanfic enthusiast, and you’re just saying things!

Lucia Kelly: And we’re here today to talk about The Runaway Bride, the 2006 Christmas Special.

Talia Franks: The Runaway Bride aired on December 25th, 2006. It was written by Russell T Davies and directed by Euros Lynn.

Lucia Kelly: Reminder that time isn’t a straight line. It can twist into any shape.

Lucia Kelly: And as such, this is a fully spoiled podcast. We might bring things in from later in the show, the comics, the books, the audio dramas, or even fan theories and articles.

Talia Franks: With that out of the way, Lance is poisoning Donna. So let’s get in the TARDIS.

Lucia Kelly: You ready?

Talia Franks: Are you ready for the fact that we have a guest today?!

Lucia Kelly: I know! I’m so excited!

Lark Malakai Grey: Hello!

Lucia Kelly: Guys. We’ve got Lark here. We’ve got Lark from The Gayly Prophet here. Isn’t this exciting?!

Lark Malakai Grey: I’m very excited personally.

Talia Franks: I’ve been waiting for this day.

Lark Malakai Grey: It’s true. Literally. It’s been months in the making, so it’s very exciting that it’s finally here.

Talia Franks: Yeah.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. It’s been — We’ve had this in the works for so long and it’s finally come to fruition and I’m just so happy. So Lark, tell us about your journey with Doctor Who, where did it all start and where are you now?

Lark Malakai Grey: Okay. My journey started — Time’s weird. Which I know, you know, because you make this podcast.

Lark Malakai Grey: At some point, at least 10 years ago, my partner was like, “It doesn’t make sense that you haven’t watched this show,” which is weird because he grew up raised by wolves in the middle of nowhere in the woods. And so for him to have seen something that I haven’t seen is one in a hundred. But he had only watched, the Tennant seasons, I think.

Lark Malakai Grey: And so, we watched those and I was like, “This is great.” And then he was like, “And now I want to be done.” So we were done. And it was like, many, many years before I was like, “But what about the rest of it, maybe?” And probably, four or five years ago, we watched what had been released at that point.

Lark Malakai Grey: And I knew that I liked it, but I didn’t really come back around to it until the pandemic started. And since then I’ve watched it all the way through at least three times, but many of the episodes, at least four times and some, even more than that, because it is my emotional support television show and when I am stressed and the world is too much, it is the only thing that I turn to, cause I’m like, “You aren’t going to hurt me, I feel safe here.” Um, up until Capaldi’s last season. At that point I stopped watching and I don’t watch any of the Chibnall era because those episodes, like so much TV, is grim dark. And I’m like, “This is not what I want in my television. I want it to be for children,” which is what Doctor Who is supposed to be.

Lark Malakai Grey: Anyway, so, that’s what I’ve got for you. Weirdly though, so I was really excited that you asked me to be on this episode because I don’t watch this episode when I do my re-watches.

Talia Franks: Really?

Lark Malakai Grey: Um, It’s the only one that I don’t watch, and it’s because I was talking to a friend of mine and was like, “Donna is my least favorite companion.” (Lucia gasps in shock)

Lark Malakai Grey: And they were like, “Why?” And I was like, “She’s so shouty. She’s so mean. I hate the way that she treats people,” and they were like, “I want you to skip her first episode, skip the Christmas episode, and then watch her.” And now she’s, one of my favorite companions, if this isn’t my intro to Donna, I love Donna. But in this episode, I really, really don’t.

Lucia Kelly: I was so scared for a second that we were going to have an irreversible schism between us. (Everyone laughs)

Lucia Kelly: Oh my goodness. Donna is my favorite companion. I adore her so much. That’s so interesting that — I love this episode because of the way Donna is characterized. I’m a huge fan of a well written unlikable character, so that probably has something to do with it.

Talia Franks: (sarcastic) Really? I never knew. (Everyone laughs)

Lucia Kelly: And that’s 100% what Donna is in this episode. She’s not meant to be — Especially uh, back to back with the sort of saccharin sweetness of Rose. Donna is a shock to the system. And that’s exactly what she’s brought in for. She’s this, sort of, in between palate cleanser, between Rose and Martha.

Lucia Kelly: There are lots of parallels between Jackie and Donna. I’m a huge Jackie advocate as everyone who listens to this podcast knows.

Lark Malakai Grey: Yeah.

Lucia Kelly: But one of the things that, continuously frustrate me about the way that Jackie is always portrayed apart from Love and Monsters, of which I am also an advocate, is that she’s never taken seriously by the narrative.

Lucia Kelly: She’s always at the butt of the joke and in a very misogynistic and ageist way, and classist way, like —

Lark Malakai Grey: Totally.

Lucia Kelly: She is there to reinforce all of the awful stereotypes about low income, single mums.

Lark Malakai Grey: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: And what I love about Donna is it’s almost like they looked at that and decided, “No. We’re gonna treat her with humanity.”

Lucia Kelly: And so, even though this episode, at the core of it, is people just being relentlessly awful to Donna.

Lark Malakai Grey: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: Because she’s this, you know, because she is a bit shallow. She is a bit shouty. She is a bit, you know, she’s, she’s hard to handle all in one go. She’s also 100% given that space to be human and to be sympathetic and for us to really connect with her and be angry on her behalf for her, about how she’s treated. So I think it’s a great introduction to Donna, but — (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Yeah.

Lark Malakai Grey: I don’t think, I don’t think you’re gonna convince me, but you are welcome to try.

Talia Franks: Also, I’m realizing we skipped right on over the synopsis because we’re so, so —

Lucia Kelly: Oh, we sure —

Talia Franks: We were so excited. We were so excited about Lark!

Lark Malakai Grey: I just came in here with my controversial opinions, so it makes sense.

Talia Franks: But we like controversial opinions.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. This whole podcast is controversial opinions. You can let them loose.

Talia Franks: Yeah. We love controversial opinions, like —

Lark Malakai Grey: Oh, I know. I really love your podcast. I think it’s lovely.

Lucia Kelly: Thank you!

Talia Franks: Thank you!

Lucia Kelly: I’m gonna try and let that not go to my head, but we’ll (Talia and Lark laughs) see.

Talia Franks: Yeah. So, IMDB synopsis is The Doctor is baffled when a young woman is transported onto the TARDIS on her wedding day, and attempts to find out how she’s connected to an alien plot to destroy Earth.

Lucia Kelly: Our synopsis is, this is the one with Donna! (All laugh) I’m so excited.

Talia Franks: Yeah so, this is a episode with Donna. I realize you’re not that excited about Donna being this episode Lark, but I’m very excited about this introduction to Donna, because I honestly feel like the Donna in Partners in Crime wouldn’t feel as developed to me if we didn’t have this version of Donna first.

Lark Malakai Grey: That feels true.

Talia Franks: Yeah. Part of her journey and her development is owed to the fact that we have this first adventure with her and that she has that space of time to digest away from The Doctor and that then we have her season. And one thing that I just love about Donna, that I talked about when we did our Season Two wrap up, one thing that I really love about Donna and about Donna’s arc is that even though I hate how she ends and I hate that she loses all of her memories is that she still has so much personality and heart to her that even when she doesn’t have The Doctor anymore, she still is something without him in a way that I feel Rose isn’t.

Lark Malakai Grey: Mm-hmm.

Talia Franks: Cause that’s something that we had been talking about, how Rose is so dependent and everything that Rose is feels founded by The Doctor. But so much of Donna is internal to herself. Her development and her journey feels external to her. And feels — Or not external, but feels external to The Doctor and feels internal to her, in a way that Rose wasn’t and I feel like it is that, sort of, refreshing palette cleanser that Lucia was saying.

Lark Malakai Grey: Totally. I mean, Donna was an adult when she joined The Doctor, whereas Rose went from her mother to The Doctor. So there is no Rose outside of The Doctor, ’cause she’s literally a child still, no offense 19 year olds. (Lucia laughs) but, she still incredibly impressionable. There was never, she never had the opportunity to do that.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. I feel what gets lost in a lot of the Tenrose stuff is that The Doctor is 100% the first Big Boyfriend. Despite the fact that she was already dating Mickey, which — (Lucia inhales and Lark laughs) Anyway, but (Lucia laughs) the narrative never considered Mickey her boyfriend actually, so neither did Rose. And… that sort of overwhelming. “Oh my gosh, he’s everything. He’s my whole universe,” just gets magnified when you put it in this sci-fi context of he’s literally showing you the universe and all this sort of stuff..

Lark Malakai Grey: Mm-hmm. Totally.

Lucia Kelly: But enough about Rose. We’re not talking about Rose. We’re talking about Donna.

Lark Malakai Grey: So here’s the thing, the thing that I think is never gonna change the way that I feel about this episode, Donna specifically, is that one of the things in media that I have the least space for, is when women are written to do things that would be abusive if it was a man doing it, because I think it’s one of the most insidious ways that the patriarchy exists, is that, by making it so that Donna can scream at people the way that she does, the fact that she hits The Doctor twice, and that’s not threatening is — that’s how it gets in your head that women aren’t threats, that they can’t be, don’t need to be taken seriously, that those things aren’t dangerous. And I think that’s… terrible. I think it sucks. And it’s what I hate about like, most sit-coms, and I don’t have space for that. So it’s not even necessarily, Donna herself, but the way that she’s written that I’m like, “This is playing into one of the tropes that I think is the worst out there.”

Lark Malakai Grey: And so I just am like, “I hate this trope, so like, I don’t have space for this existing.” If Donna’s gonna grow, I would love it if she was growing from a space that wasn’t like, “Oh, she just like, abuses everyone around her. And it’s funny, haha. Because she’s not actually threatening because, just because gender, that’s the only reason.”

Talia Franks: Yeah. I was noticing that a lot in this episode too. I was noticing, especially how Donna was so aggressive towards Lance in —

Lark Malakai Grey: Mm-hmm.

Talia Franks: — the way that she pursued him. And that was played for laughs. When that was absolutely workplace harassment.

Talia Franks: And there was also that offhand line about Donna being someone in drag that was played for laughs. I definitely noticed that. The other moment that stood out to me was when Donna went back to the reception and everyone was mad at her and yelling at her. And then she started fake crying and everyone started clapping.

Talia Franks: That very much stood out to me as being like, “Oh, this is a white woman. Who’s weaponizing her tears right now.”

Lark Malakai Grey: Yeah.

Lucia Kelly: And the fact that The Doctor approves of it as well, like he has that little back and forth with her and you see him being amused by it that —

Lark Malakai Grey: Yeah.

Lucia Kelly: — that’s a beat in the actual show and I’m, like, mmm. (Lucia makes an uncomfortable groaning sound)

Lark Malakai Grey: It also plays into the like, you know, “Women only cry for attention to emotionally manipulate those around them, like authentic tears don’t even exist. It’s just a manipulation tactic,”

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lark Malakai Grey: Which is also terrible.

Lucia Kelly: Although I feel like that’s juxtaposed pretty well by, you know, after it all comes out with Lance and he’s an asshole to her and The Doctor does that, you know, it’s so, he’s such a show off the way he’s like, “Oh, just listen to me,” I’m gonna like, look at me, like twist the little thing, and like, do it all the last minute so I can be star of the show. Fuck off. (They all laugh) But um, but when they’re in the TARDIS, just after that moment, and you know, The Doctor is well practiced at this point of locking away his emotions and not thinking about it, and he’s doing that this entire episode as well, ’cause he’s literally just said goodbye to Rose.

Lark Malakai Grey: Mm-hmm.

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: Um, but then, so he’s like, jumping about saying “Molto bene,” trying to get us to the birth of the Earth, and Donna is just heartbroken. It’s not for show. It’s not, she’s not looking for attention. She’s not even looking for comfort. She’s just absolutely heartbroken. And it reminds me actually a lot of an Eleventh Doctor episode, The Beast Below, where the big thing, the line that always stuck out to me from that episode is when the Eleventh Doctor points out to Amy that like, if a child is crying silently, they’ve given up. That’s not for anything. That’s not for attention. That’s not a cry for help. That’s just emotion.

Lark Malakai Grey: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: That’s just them trying to process something. And that’s what you’ve gotta look out for. That’s the moment when it’s your responsibility, as the protector of the child, to protect them and to look after them because that’s when they’re the most vulnerable.

Lark Malakai Grey: Totally.

Lucia Kelly: Um, and that’s what’s happening there, right? Is so much of Donna is this… being loud on purpose, because at the core of it, she doesn’t think anyone listens to her. And unfortunately the vast majority of her life that’s actually been proven to be true. No one does listen to her. No one does talk to her except to berate her, or tell her off, or make fun of her, or make her feel small. And so she makes herself big, on purpose. And then I just, Catherine Tate is such a beautiful, gorgeous actress. I love the way that they gave her the space to really show off her dramatic skills.

Lucia Kelly: Even in this very first episode where like, you have Catherine Tate, on she’s a comedy person, this is her whole, like, Donna’s persona is very much based on Catherine Tate’s comedy persona and the way that they didn’t just completely buy into that and let her show off her incredible skill just makes me so happy.

Talia Franks: Yeah. And it also makes me think of too, how Donna really holds The Doctor accountable, especially at the end of the episode where he asks her to come with him and she’s like, “No, you terrify me.” She’s like, “No, you just like, made it snow on a whim. Like, you’re like — I can’t believe you.”

Lark Malakai Grey: She’s the first person to ever have the appropriate reaction — (Lucia and Talia laugh)

Talia Franks: Yeah.

Lark Malakai Grey: — to The Doctor being like, “Let’s go!” and it’s like, “Um, what? Under no circumstances, sir.”

Talia Franks: Yeah, no. She’s just like, “You are too much.” And she definitely has the appropriate response. And the fact that Donna is able to hold him accountable in that way and able to hold him back, but able to also recognize, “No, you need someone in your life, but I don’t have the capacity to be that person,” is just such a power move and I just love that for her.

Lucia Kelly: I don’t like how it’s framed in this very kind of, um — and this is a problem with all of the companions but it very much — it smells of women doing emotional labor for men, which I’m never a fan of.

Talia Franks: Yeah.

Lucia Kelly: This idea of you need someone (female) to look after you and make sure you don’t go too far is like — Mmm, The Doctor can actually do that for himself actually.

Lucia Kelly: Yes, you need your support system. And yes, your friends, your companions, everyone around you, we are all always on a journey together with people, and your input, and the conversations you have, they’re what help you, but you need to do the work yourself. And that’s not what Donna’s saying. Donna’s saying like, “You need a warden. You need someone to make sure that you are not going over the edge.” And it’s like —

Lark Malakai Grey: I think he really might though. (Lucia laughs) He has too much power and I don’t think it needs to be a woman, but I think that having someone mortal around to be like, “You’re immortal and all powerful and basically God. So like, just to check in from someone who’s none of those things, maybe we could look at this with an outside perspective and assess it —

Talia Franks: Yeah.

Lark Malakai Grey: — from, from the perspective of someone who will die someday.”

Talia Franks: Yeah. That’s definitely how I read it. I read it as Donna saying like, “You need, not necessarily a woman, just you need someone who has an outside perspective, who has a clear head, who can tell you when you’re going too far.”

Talia Franks: I didn’t see it as her saying, “You need someone to like, be your emotional —” Like, I don’t know the extent to which Donna is aware of the layers of trauma that The Doctor has. We were saying just last episode, The Doctor needs a therapist bad, but we don’t know what therapist would put up with him (Lark laughs) or what therapist he would listen to.

Talia Franks: But the point is, Donna doesn’t have any of that context. So yeah. Donna was just saying, “You need someone to hold you accountable. You need someone to be your reality check.” I think the show definitely relies on these companions to do some of that emotional labor in some ways.

Talia Franks: It’s definitely something that we should keep an eye out for in future episodes when we continue to talk about it.

Lucia Kelly: This is just making me wanna rewatch Fires of Pompeii, for that scene and everything about it. But we’re not there yet. We’ll get there.

Lark Malakai Grey: Such a good episode though.

Lucia Kelly: I might rewatch it after we’re done here just for just for my own sake. (Lucia laughs)

Ad Break

Lucia Kelly: Does anyone have any other talking points that they wanna bring up?

Lucia Kelly: Should we talk about Lance? Should we give him the time of day?

Talia Franks: Lance bothers me so much. It stresses me out so much because I’m trying to pull together exactly what it is about his and Donna’s relationship that bothers me so much, but I think, part of what it boils down to is that there is so little representation of interracial relationships with Black men and white women that I’ve seen in general. And the fact that the Black man is preying on her, and is abusing her, and literally poisoning her, and then dies, makes me feel very yucky.

Talia Franks: Especially when we then speed forward to thinking about the only other time I can think about a Black man and a white woman in a relationship in Doctor Who is in Eve of the Daleks, is, is like really clear in my mind, in thinking about how Nick stalks Sarah, and we talked about how there are different ways to look at that, but it’s definitely framed that way for a lot of people and makes a lot of people uncomfortable.

Talia Franks: And so, I’m just sensing and seeing a sort of pattern and it bothers me.

Lucia Kelly: Having not watched the episode because I refuse to watch Clara and Eleven together, Danny Pink?

Lark Malakai Grey: Oh, yeah, Danny Pink.

Talia Franks: Oh, Danny Pink.

Lark Malakai Grey: And also Donna, the guy that Donna ends up marrying is also Black.

Lucia Kelly: That is true! Temple!

Talia Franks: Yes. Danny and Clara I think I forgot about because —

Lark Malakai Grey: It’s traumatic as fuck?

Talia Franks: Danny is very traumatic and continues to prove my point. You’re not negating my point. You’re just making it worse.

Lucia Kelly: I know. I just, I didn’t want, I didn’t want ’cause I know there are times that I’ve been listening to a podcast and there’s a point that I know that should be brought up and I’m like, “How could you forget?!” (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Because I like to forget about Danny Pink because he’s so traumatic for me, but yes, Danny Pink in the way he’s treated by The Doctor in particular is disgusting, and racist, and horrible, and I hate it. So yeah, it’s just continuing a long tradition and I guess Donna does marry a Black man and he doesn’t have any speaking lines.

Lark Malakai Grey: Yeah. Because his last name is Temple. So it’s funny, ’cause it’s Noble Temple or Temple Noble or whatever.

Talia Franks: I think that’s one of the only things we know about him.

Lark Malakai Grey: Yeah. It’s one episode.

Talia Franks: Yeah. So now I’m just thinking, we’ve talked before about how Black people aren’t treated well on this show or really anywhere. And it’s just, again, I just wanna say an example of how it’s a problem in RTD and people talk about how it’s a new problem with Chibnall and it’s not. And I just wanna point that out.

Lark Malakai Grey: Oh yeah. Totally not. No, it’s been a problem since the first episode of this show.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah.

Talia Franks: And I don’t know why actually now I’m thinking about Rose and Mickey is again an example of a Black man with a white woman that went terribly.

Lark Malakai Grey: Yep.

Talia Franks: So yeah, this show has a lot of Black men with white women and it goes terribly.

Lucia Kelly: Every time.

Talia Franks: Every time.

Lark Malakai Grey: Yeah. Whenever I watch this episode, you — I don’t (Lark laughs softly) know. When you have all of the characters on your show be white all the time. And then you throw in a Black person every once in a while and they’re like, usually the villain, or usually there to create some sort of problem or drama. That’s a really bad look. You can have Black folks be your villains if blackness isn’t only showing up in your villains.

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lark Malakai Grey: Like, you need to, the big picture needs to be like, taking into account. What does this look like? And, how do you fix it? You fix it by having people of color in your main character cast all the time. What are you doing?

Lark Malakai Grey: It’s very frustrating.

Lucia Kelly: It’s ironic that The Doctor brings Donna up on not seeing the big picture so often.

Lark Malakai Grey: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: Given how un-self aware the show generally is —

Lark Malakai Grey: Totally.

Lucia Kelly: — about the big picture.

Lark Malakai Grey: Yep. Yeah. (Transition wobbles)

Lucia Kelly: The only other thing that I wanted to bring up, cause it wouldn’t quite, I’m not quite sure how I would fit it into the grading later is… this spider. (Lucia sighs and Talia and Lark laugh)

Lark Malakai Grey: It’s so terrible.

Lucia Kelly: It’s the weak point of the episode. It’s so bad.

Lark Malakai Grey: It’s a Power Rangers monster. (Talia keeps laughing)

Lucia Kelly: Right? The Power — like, like, it’s so just over the top — I feel bad for the actress because she’s giving it her all, and like —

Lark Malakai Grey: Those mouth sounds should be sent straight to jail. (Talia and Lucia laugh) Like, no one should ever have to listen to that. (Lark laughs)

Lucia Kelly: And the thing is it’s a great performance for a different show. Exactly like you — like for Power Rangers or something similar where that kind of villain fits.

Lark Malakai Grey: Right.

Talia Franks: I feel like it would be a great villain for the Sarah Jane Adventures.

Lucia and Lark together: Yes!

Lark Malakai Grey: Also that.

Lucia Kelly: Yes! (Lark laughs)

Talia Franks: I’ve been rewatching the Sarah Jane Adventures. And I was like, “This would be a great villain for Sarah Jane.”

Lark Malakai Grey: Yep.

Lucia Kelly: It just doesn’t fit with the rest of it.

Lark Malakai Grey: Yeah.

Lucia Kelly: It’s really bizarre. Like, you’ve got all of this really…. It’s just at a different maturity level.

Lark Malakai Grey: Mm-hmm.

Talia Franks: What do we think of The Doctor just killing all of the Racnoss —

Lucia Kelly: Murdering all the babies??

Talia Franks: Murdering all the Racnoss babies?

Lark Malakai Grey: Essentially committing genocide, right? Cause this is the last of them. It’s a lot.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no, it’s a lot. The fact that they even include all those little screams it takes me every time. (Lucia is laughing while she speaks) They’re like, “AHHHH!”

Talia Franks: Yeah. And also the thing that I caught is that The Doctor gives her a chance, but he gives her a chance while she thinks he’s Martian. He doesn’t reveal the fact that he’s from Gallifrey, and that he’s a Time Lord, and that he’s actually a threat, until after she’s already declined and said no. And given her reaction to finding out that he’s a Time Lord and discovering his level of threat, she might have taken him up on it —

Lucia Kelly: Hmm.

Talia Franks: — might have backed down, if she actually knew what he was capable of.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no, I hated the framing of that. The fact that he’s like, like that the, the, “This is your fault” is so outrageously wrong. It’s such a blatant… It’s so blatant in putting the responsibility for a horrendous act on someone else, when you were 100% behind the steering wheel. The Doctor could have chosen not to do that. It was actually 100% within his power. That was his choice. That’s what he did. And to then say, like to, to then be like, to, to murder hundreds upon thousands of babies in front of a mother, and then say “You did this” to that same mother?

Lark Malakai Grey: Yep.

Lucia Kelly: Oh my God. Yeah.

Lark Malakai Grey: Right pop down there in the TARDIS.

Lucia Kelly: Mm-hmm

Lark Malakai Grey: Relocate them somewhere where they are not gonna do harm.

Talia Franks: Yeah. Stopping her does not mean killing all them.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no. (Transition wobbles)

Talia Franks: Also a small note, but why did he have to taunt Donna about her lack of pockets? It’s such a cheap shot!!

Lark Malakai Grey: I thi— I really hate everything about the way everyone treats Donna in this episode. It’s really terrible. Also his note, when she’s yelling at Lance to like, get in the elevator and The Doctor looks at Lance and is like “To honor and obey” and Lance is like, “Tell me about it.”

Lark Malakai Grey: And we’re like, “LOL, Donna is so terrible. What a terrible harpy!” What? No. Thank you.

Talia Franks: I’ll take none of it.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, I know, it makes me so angry. It makes me so angry the way that, I mean, I’ve already talked about this, but it makes me so angry about how everyone treats Donna.

Lucia Kelly: And I’m curious about how much was already planned in advance? Whether at this point there were plans to bring Donna back as a permanent companion? Um —

Lark Malakai Grey: From what I read the answer to that is no, she was supposed to be a one off.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. Because the way her mother in particular treats her is horrendous. It’s just so awful and it’s never addressed within this episode, and then even later on, it’s just accepted that. Yeah. Donna has a terrible mother.

Lucia Kelly: Sorry about it.

Lucia Kelly: I’d love to think it’s put in there to like, give context for the way that Donna acts, but I don’t think it is. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Yeah, I also… thinking about the way Donna is treated. I think one of the most genuinely terrifying moments of the episode is when Donna is trapped in the car and can’t get out. Because that could happen to an actual person —

Lark Malakai Grey: Mmm.

Talia Franks: — is being kidnapped and trapped in a car. And like, just from Donna’s perspective, thinking of her being yanked up from her wedding, trapped in a spaceship. And then she finally escapes from this man that from her perspective has kidnapped over from her wedding and taken her to space. Now she’s been kidnapped by an evil Santa, is trapped in a car, and the only way she can escape from her new kidnapper is to go with her old kidnapper.

Lark Malakai Grey: Yeah.

Lucia Kelly: Who, at this point she suspects has kidnapped previous women, right? Like, is a serial kidnapper.

Lark Malakai Grey: Yeah. I feel like they knew how upsetting that scene was because they did a lot of work to give us like, comic relief with those kids that are like, rooting for Donna to get out of the car, which works, like the — It’s great.

Lark Malakai Grey: The kids being like, “Yeah!” like, “You did it!” But like, you only put something like that in a scene when you’re like, “This might actually be a little bit much. (Lucia laughs) We might need to tone this down a little bit.”

Lucia Kelly: I always wonder what the parents are doing. Cause they, those kids are yelling!

Lark Malakai Grey: Yeah.

Lucia Kelly: They’re like, very clearly — (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Yeah.

Lark Malakai Grey: The parents are probably just being like, “Stop! Shut up! You’re being too loud! I’m trying to drive.” (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Yeah. But I honestly do genuinely wonder what those parents are think— those parents are probably thinking the kids are playing some kind of game in the back of the car —

Lark Malakai Grey: Yeah definitely.

Lucia Kelly: Hmm.

Talia Franks: — because kids often just play games in the back of cars, but seriously.

Lucia Kelly: The fact that they didn’t crash is a miracle.

Talia Franks: Although I do always love seeing the TARDIS in flight because I wonder how is a box flying? Like, how does it do that?

Lark Malakai Grey: Not very effectively. It’s really not what it was designed for. It’s very clear every time we see it, we’re like, “That is a mess. (Lark laughs) This is not what you were meant to be doing.”

 (Transition wobbles)

Lucia Kelly: So! (Lucia claps) Favourite and least favourite moments. Who wants to first?

Talia Franks: Lark’s the guest. He should go first.

Lark Malakai Grey: Okay, so I have a like, joke favorite and an actual favorite. So my silly favorite is the, “You’re the head of Human Resources.” And then Lance is “Yeah. And this time it’s Personnel.” Which is. Incredible. (Talia laughs) So good. Love a pun. My real favorite is The Doctor is trying to figure out what’s up with Donna. It’s like, when they’re sitting on the roof and he’s scanning her and he’s like, “You’re not anything,” like, “You’re not important.” And then this whole episode plays out and then several seasons later, we get this line from Matt Smith’s Doctor where he’s like, “In 900 years of traveling in time and space. I’ve never met anyone who wasn’t important before.” And I feel like this episode is the moment that he learned that lesson. Where he said out loud to someone “You’re not important,” and then was like, “Wow, was I wrong. Holy moly. Let me just take that all back because I’ve learned a big lesson here.”

Lucia Kelly: I love that. Talia?

Talia Franks: That’s a great favorite moment. You didn’t say your least favorite moment though.

Lark Malakai Grey: Oh, I didn’t know. We did them together. Sorry. My least favorite moment was the like, transphobia when with the like, “You’re fooling no one, mate.” And then the way that The Doctor looks at Donna of like, “Yeah. Same. Whatever.” Like, it’s very gross and I hated it.

Talia Franks: Yeah. That was also my least favorite moment. My favorite moment? Um, know what’s kind of funny? I didn’t think of a favorite moment. I distinctly remembered that the transphobia was my least favorite moment, but I hadn’t actually thought of a specific favorite moment yet? (Talia lets out a small laugh) I think my favorite moment is probably when they’re looking at the Earth forming, and… Donna is seeing that expansiveness and she’s still grieving, but she’s also seeing this wonder.

Talia Franks: I don’t know. I always like the moments where Companions see space. But yeah, I’m sorry. I hadn’t actually thought of what my favorite moment was gonna be. I just, I don’t know. Cause I hadn’t seen this episode in years. I just had remembered, “Oh, Runaway Bride, Donna’s first episode. I love this episode,” and then I watched it again and I was like, “I don’t actually like this episode very much.” I was watching it all, like sort of like, “Mm, no.” So because I didn’t really like the episode that much I wasn’t really watching out for a favorite moment. (Talia laughs)

Talia Franks: I was just kind of, noticing all the things I disliked and not liking the episode as much as I usually do. But yeah, probably I would say if I had to pick out something now that I’m thinking about it, that I did really like about the episode, it’s probably that moment where Donna sees space for the first time.

Lucia Kelly: My least favorite moment is the confrontation with Lance. I think he’s an absolute arsehole to her. And it’s just terrible the way that…. he doesn’t stop? He’s just relentless in it. Donna is mis— She’s crying and miserable and he just keeps going and it’s just awful.

Lark Malakai Grey: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: Um.

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: You know, cause he never considered her a person and that doesn’t mean anything to him. (Lucia mutters indistinctly and breaks down before laughing)

Talia Franks: That’s gonna be really fun to write on the transcript. (Lucia and Lark laugh) Thank you for that. I’m gonna have so much fun typing that out. (Lucia laughs again)

Lark Malakai Grey: Brackets, mutters indistinctly. (Lucia and Talia laugh together)

Lucia Kelly: Lucia breaks down when considering Donna not being considered a person. (All laugh)

Lucia Kelly: My favorite moment is the rooftop scene. Specifically from the moment when Donna says, “God you’re skinny. This wouldn’t fit a rat.” (Lucia laughs while saying um) Everything from that moment is when, they actually bond and decide to be friends and it’s really sweet and like, the whole bio damper “for better or for worse” and all that kind of stuff is just really sweet to me. And they’re like, choosing to be vulnerable and friendly to each other and it’s nice.

Lark Malakai Grey: Mm-hmm

Talia Franks: I do like that, but I will say it is the start of something that I do dislike about Tennant’s run, which is the over emphasis on Tennant being skinny, which bothers me so much. Because I don’t like when a show comments on a character’s body like that, whether or not it’s calling them skinny or fat or anything, it just makes me so uncomfortable because that’s written into the script. And so that’s something that the character is, but it’s also something that the actor is going to have to live with.

Talia Franks: And I don’t know how David Tennant feels about it, but I know that being constantly called skinny isn’t healthy for a lot of people. And like, it just makes me very uncomfortable. Um —

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. If everyone could stop commenting on other people’s bodies, full stop period, that’d be great. Thanks.

Talia Franks: Yeah. ‘Cause it follows through, in so many Tennant episodes, especially the ones with Donna, and like, all the way through, even to the 50th, in the interaction between Ten and Eleven it happens. Um —

Lark Malakai Grey: Which is like, maybe one of the cutest things that’s ever happened in this earth. I just feel like the joy on Matt Smith’s face to be acting opposite David Tennant is like, he, he can’t act through the joy that he, as an actor is actually experiencing, and so it’s just like, showing all over and you’re like, “You are so cute. This is so cute. I just wanna hug both of you right now.” Anyway. Sorry.

Talia Franks: Yeah, no. Matt Smith and David Tennant acting together is just, chef’s kiss.

Lark Malakai Grey: It’s so good. I just love it so much.

Talia Franks: I love it so much. I love the 50th. I feel like they act off each other so well. I really wish that I could have seen Christopher Eccleston in the 50th Anniversary with them. I wish he had been in that episode so much.

Lark Malakai Grey: No comment.

Talia Franks: It would’ve been — I know you don’t like Nine. (They all laugh)

Lark Malakai Grey: I got nothing.

Talia Franks: It’s okay.

Lucia Kelly: It’s fine.

Lark Malakai Grey: The look of disappointment on both of your faces as you’re like “It’s fine. I’ve lost all my respect for you, but it’s fine.” Look, I’m sorry. He looks like Nicholas Cage. I’ve got — There’s — That’s a no for me. That’s it.

Talia Franks: Okay. Alright. So, the Hero and the Adam. I think the Adam is fairly obvious. Do y’all agree?

Lark Malakai Grey: I’m guessing that my Adam is not who your Adam is. So —

Talia Franks: Who do you think the Adam is?

Lark Malakai Grey: In my mind? The Adam is Donna’s mom. Anytime she’s in an episode, the Adam will always be Donna’s mom. I think she’s trash.

Talia Franks: Lucia?

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. Here’s the thing. My Adam is Lance, because he’s an arsehole, but also it’s equally divided between Donna’s mum and Lance for me, because which is such a — I feel, I feel like, I feel like my brand is changing. I was such a Jackie advocate (Lucia dissolves into giggles) and now, and now I’m like, no, this mother, no, not at all.

Lark Malakai Grey: Uh, They are not comparable. She is so mean.

Lucia Kelly: She’s so awful. I hate her. What’s her name? Hang on.

Talia Franks: Sylvia, her name is Sylvia.

Lark Malakai Grey: So who’s your Adam Talia.

Talia Franks: I was actually gonna say that it’s Sylvia.

Lark Malakai Grey: Great.

Lucia Kelly: Yay. That we agree. Sylvia’s the worst!

Talia Franks: Like, I was gonna say, the reason I think it’s fairly obvious that it’s her is because she is the one who is constantly pushing Donna and it’s her influence that has pushed Donna to have this kind of personality.

Talia Franks: And if she hadn’t pushed Donna to be the way that she is and is acting in this episode, then Donna never would’ve ended up with Lance.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. You have to wonder how much of Donna’s need to get married, to get out of her parents’ house, is influenced by the fact that she lives with her mother —

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: — and her mother is like that to her.

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lark Malakai Grey: Yep. Yeah. I feel like her like, companion trajectory was also really, I think beneficially changed by the fact that the guy that plays her dad in this episode died before she became the companion. And we end up with the like, absolute blessing that is Wilf, who’s like, like, you just look at him and feel like you’re getting a hug. Donna’s whole family dynamic I think would’ve been much harder to witness if we still had her dad from this episode when she’s the actual companion.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no. Oh, I can’t wait for Wilf. I actually headcanon, you know, when Sylvia’s on the phone, and she’s like, “I don’t know where she is. She literally vanished. Go check the house.” I always headcanon that she’s talking to Wilf.

Lark Malakai Grey: Oh, nice.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. Cause he is not there, but we know he’s there.

Lark Malakai Grey: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: What, What’s the excuse they give? He had the flu?

Lark Malakai Grey: Good question.

Talia Franks: Yeah. I think that the excuse they give is that he had the flu.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah.

Talia Franks: That he couldn’t go ’cause he was sick.

Lucia Kelly: Did he really have the flu or did he not approve of Lance? We’ll never know. (They all laugh)

Lucia Kelly: Alright. Ranking and grading. Wait, no! We didn’t do Hero! Donna!

Talia Franks: Oh yeah, we didn’t do Hero.

Lark Malakai Grey: Donna.

Talia Franks: Donna!

Lark Malakai Grey: Obviously.

Lucia Kelly: Donna!

Talia Franks: Obviously Donna.

Lucia Kelly: Donna.

Talia Franks: Donna, hundred percent.

Lucia Kelly: No explanation needed.

Talia Franks: I wonder when we do our ranking, when we go to Donna’s episodes, how many episodes Donna is the Hero.

Lucia Kelly: It will be every time.

Talia Franks: Except for, except for Midnight, ’cause she wasn’t really in that one.

Lark Malakai Grey: True.

Lucia Kelly: No, she’ll be the Hero on Midnight as well because she took care of herself and decided to just skip all that mess, and isn’t that a heroic action in of itself? (They all laugh)

Lark Malakai Grey: Very true.

Lucia Kelly: Production. Yay? Nay? Yay?

Lark Malakai Grey: Uh, it didn’t have any CGI really, which is a yay for me.

Talia Franks: Christmas trees.

Lucia Kelly: Oh yeah. The Christmas trees.

Lark Malakai Grey: The Christmas trees.

Talia Franks: Christmas trees. The, the Christmas star.

Lark Malakai Grey: (Lark sighs) Okay.

Lucia Kelly: Christmas trees, the floating baubles, the spaceship.

Lark Malakai Grey: So that’s a point off. The spaceship, I think was at least partly practical effects or at least it didn’t look as bad as they sometimes do.

Talia Franks: Sorry. Can we subtract points for how much water they wasted?

Lark Malakai Grey: We don’t actually know how big that shot was though. It could have been a sink.

Talia Franks: Okay. Well, no, because they flooded the corridor and that was definitely a real corridor because they’ve reused it. And they had that whole scene where it was raining on them. And I’m just saying this episode really made me think, “Wow, I wonder how many TV shows and movies have just wasted water.”

Lark Malakai Grey: In places where it is as wet as England it’s not really wasting the water though ’cause it’s got a functional water cycle. It’s really, if it’s filmed in Hollywood, the water is being wasted because that water came from somewhere else. But if your water just does the thing that you learned in elementary school, then you can’t really waste it.

Talia Franks: Okay.

Lucia Kelly: I’m sure they just dumped it all back in the Thames. (They all laugh)

Talia Franks: After they drained the Thames.

Lucia Kelly: I did also wanna say, despite the fact that the character makes me — so — just takes me out. The actual practical effects in costume design of the spider is fantastic.

Lark Malakai Grey: True.

Lucia Kelly: Like, she looks great. She just doesn’t fit.

Talia Franks: Yep.

Lark Malakai Grey: Yeah.

Lucia Kelly: I’m gonna give it a four.

Lark Malakai Grey: That’s what I had.

Talia Franks: Yeah, let’s give it a four.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. Cool. Writing.

Lark Malakai Grey: Yeah. I felt like I was being generous when I gave it a three. So I could be talked down.

Talia Franks: You are hovering over a two right now, Lucia.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. That’s, that was a mistake.

Talia Franks: No, I think it was correct.

Lucia Kelly: I feel like it’s between two and three, like it’s a 2.5.

Lark Malakai Grey: That feels good.

Talia Franks: Okay. Let’s give it a 2.5. Okay. Acting.

Lark Malakai Grey: It was great.

Talia Franks: The acting is great.

Lucia Kelly: It was great.

Talia Franks: Loved the acting.

Lucia and Talia together: Five.

Talia Franks: Now the science. Ooo baby. (They all laugh) What are we giving the science grade?

Lucia Kelly: Oh goodness. This science. Okay. So the rules for science is that it has to make sense. That’s the one requirement is that it doesn’t necessarily have to be true. It doesn’t necessarily have to pay attention to our laws of physics. It just has to make sense.

Lark Malakai Grey: I feel like they closed all of their loops. Like —

Lucia Kelly: They did close all their loops.

Lark Malakai Grey: If that’s the, if that’s the criteria, then I think that they did a really good job. Everything has a causal effect then like here’s what it follows from.

Talia Franks: Yeah. If you did a deductive proof, I think it makes sense.

Talia Franks: I’m not sure that all of the like, premises are air-tight. (They all giggle) But if you deduct from all the premises, it makes sense.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. I’m also pretty sure, like, the idea of particles of the same kind attracting each other is a thing. Like, they do tend to want to be together.

Talia Franks: I’m a little skeptical of them wanting to be together across billions of years, but I’ll be okay with it.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. They do like the center of the earth, don’t they? They like the cores of planets being not what we want them to be. The cores of things.

Talia Franks: I’d say we give it a four because the core of the planet is definitely not housing things that are still alive.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. Also it’s fairly important that it stays hot and molten. Like, that’s actually a really important thing.

Talia Franks: Yeah. And I also am slightly confused at how the Empress of the Racnoss is alive and not in the center of the Earth.

Lark Malakai Grey: She teleported back to her spaceship, right? And then they blow up the spaceship?

Talia Franks: No, but how did she, why is she not in the center of the Earth? How did she know to dig them up? Why wasn’t she buried with them?

Lark Malakai Grey: Oh. Surely that’s explained in the episode.

Lucia Kelly: I feel like it is, but I can’t remember.

Talia Franks: I don’t remember it being explained.

Talia Franks: And it’s something that I wondered about in previous watches.

Talia Franks: I’ve always wondered that.

Lucia Kelly: I’m checking the transcript that it doesn’t seem to be here. I swear she does explain it though.

Talia Franks: No, she never explains it. It’s not explained.

Lucia Kelly: The characterization of the Empress is just also bizarre. Nothing about that spider makes sense.

Lark Malakai Grey: No. Um, according to tardis.fandom.com, the Empress was the only Racnoss to survive and not hibernate in the Earth’s center. Instead she hid at the edge of the universe for billions of years, until Torchwood uncovered the secret heart, the ship her children were in, and developed Huon particles, which she could use to reawaken them.

Lark Malakai Grey: The ship then sent a signal to her web star, which drew her to the Earth.

Talia Franks: OK. So science is a four.

Lucia Kelly: Four. Four.

Lark Malakai Grey: I think it’s a four.

Lucia Kelly: Yep. Re-watchability?

Lark Malakai Grey: One.

Talia Franks: Well, we know Lark’s re-watchability’s low.

Lark Malakai Grey: One.

Lucia Kelly: Two?

Talia Franks: I’d give it a two.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah.

Talia Franks: So 1.5, to be fair?

Lark Malakai Grey: Well, there’s two of you, so I don’t think my vote should count for half.

Talia Franks: I wanna give the re-watchability a two because vibes.

Lucia Kelly: It, it does have a two vibe about it, doesn’t it? (They all laugh) Aw. This isn’t looking good.

Lucia Kelly: At least we haven’t got any ones today. Or zeros that’s always possible.

Lucia Kelly: 70%! Which is C minus. Oof. (Lark snorts)

Talia Franks: I feel that might be better than any opening episode so far, but I might be wrong.

Lucia Kelly: Honestly, that might be — I mean, it was way better than Christmas Invasion!

Talia Franks: Christmas Invasion, got an F. Christmas Invasion was a solid F.

Lucia Kelly: Markable step forward in Christmas Specials.

Lucia and Talia together: Alright.

Lucia Kelly: So we say goodbye to Donna for another season until she comes back to us and hello to Martha because Martha’s coming. I’m so happy and excited.

Lark Malakai Grey: Yeah.

Talia Franks: Thank you for joining us Lark. It was so fun!

Lark Malakai Grey: Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Lucia Kelly: It was delightful. Where can the people find you if they want more Lark in their life, which everyone should?

Lark Malakai Grey: Uh, yes, I agree. (They all laugh) So I host a Harry Potter podcast called the Gayly Prophet and a Simon Snow podcast called EsGAYpe From Reality, which is spelled E S G A Y P E from reality.

Lark Malakai Grey: And then We are the Gayers, which is a Patreon only podcast that I make with my co-host Jesse, who hopefully you will hear on this podcast at some point. We make that about Buffy the Vampire Slayer and speaking into existence, something that at the time of recording hasn’t happened yet, but at the time that this comes out, hopefully will have, I also just kickstarted a Tarot deck and it’s real rad.

Lark Malakai Grey: Uh, it’s called Under The Bed Tarot and you should totally check it out. Yeah, probably the best place to find all of the things is gonna be at hashtagruthless.com, which is the quote unquote production company that makes all of our podcasts and is really just me and Jesse.

Talia Franks: You and Jesse are great!

Lucia Kelly: Yeah.

Lark Malakai Grey: Thank you. Yeah, our podcasts are on all the platforms. We’re also on Instagram and Twitter @TheGaylyProphet.

Lucia Kelly: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for joining us. It’s been such a pleasure, and hopefully we’ll see you around. This has been lovely.

Lark Malakai Grey: Heck yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much.

Talia Franks: And speaking also of Patreons, we now have a Patreon.

Lark Malakai Grey: Woohoo.

Lucia Kelly: I know it’s, ah!

Talia Franks: Yeah. So if you wanna support Wibbly Wobbly you can go to patreon.com/wibblypod.

Lucia Kelly: We’ll put the link in the description. There’s gonna be all kinds of fun stuff and special features. So if you want Wibbly in your life, that’s the place to go.

Talia Franks: Bye.

Lucia Kelly: See you for Martha!

Talia Franks: See you for Martha.

Talia Franks: Hello everyone. This is Talia and Lark from the Future. We’ve recorded that episode so many months ago, I don’t even remember what month it was.

Talia Franks: Lark has a bunch of new projects to talk about. So we’re doing a sneaky little additional thing to this episode. Lark, why don’t you say the things that are coming up, or have come up.

Lark Malakai Grey: Yeah, sure. Okay. We recently, this summer made an entire podcast about Our Flag Means Death called the Gay Pirate Podcast, and it was the funnest summer break ever. It was like being at Podcast Pirate Summer Camp. And then also as of when this comes out, the Tarot deck that I kickstarted two months after we recorded that episode will physically exist in the world and people will be able to like, order it and have it sent to them, without a like, 10 month waiting period. So that’s really exciting. It’s called Under the Bed Tarot and it’s monsters and it’s gender free and it’s beginner friendly and I’m really proud of it. And that’s available in the Hashtag Ruthless Shop. So yeah, that’s all my things.

Talia Franks: Yeah, it’s all very exciting things. I am very excited by everything that y’all do. And also, they post really great memes on all their social profiles. So do you want, do you wanna —

Lark Malakai Grey: Thank you.

Talia Franks: — Share your @’s —

Lark Malakai Grey: Yes. I do.

Talia Franks: And links and everything.

Lark Malakai Grey: So we are on Instagram and Twitter @TheGaylyProphet, and our website is hashtagruthless.com.

Lark Malakai Grey: And we’re on Patreon at patreon.com/TheGaylyProphet. Our podcasts are up all of the places that podcasts go. Yeah.

Talia Franks: And you should listen to all the podcasts. They’re really funny. They’re really fun. And yeah. So thank you again for being on. Sorry, Lucia couldn’t be on this little uh, addition. I checked and it’s 4:00 AM for her right now, so she’s sleeping.

Lark Malakai Grey: Yeah, that’s pretty reasonable.

Talia Franks: Anyway, but yeah. Thank you.

Lark Malakai Grey: Yeah, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time to make sure that the most up to date information was available for your listeners.

Talia Franks: Yeah, you’re welcome.

Lucia Kelly: Thank you for listening to the Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey podcast. 

Talia Franks: We hope you enjoyed this adventure with us through space and time.

Lucia Kelly: You can find us elsewhere on the internet on Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram @WibblyPod. Follow us for more Wibbly Wobbly content. 

Talia Franks: You can find out more information about us and our content on wibblywobblytimeywimey.net, and full transcripts for episodes at wibblywobblytimeywimey.net/transcripts. 

Lucia Kelly: If you’d like to get in touch with us, you can send us email at wibblywobblytimeywimeypod@gmail.com. 

Talia Franks: Please rate and review us on Apple podcasts and other platforms as it helps other people find us and our content. 

Lucia Kelly: That’s all for now, catch you in the time vortex!