It’s THE END OF THE WORLD and the Doctor has TRAUMA so let’s strap in and get to talking about all the things that went horribly wrong and what things went just right. Talia gets emotional, Lucia loses it over the science, neither of them cares for all the isms, it’s a rough ride of an episode, but we make it through!
Lucia Kelly: Hello and welcome to the Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Podcast! (Lucia and Talia laugh)
Talia Franks: I’m Talia Franks, media critic, fanfic enthusiast, and repeated meme.
Lucia Kelly: And I’m Lucia Kelly, expert at applied analysis, and bitchy trampoline.
Talia Franks: And we’re here today to talk about “The End of the World” the second episode of Doctor Who, Series One.
Lucia Kelly: “The End of the World” aired on 2nd of April, 2005. It was written by Russell T Davies and directed by Eros Lyn.
Talia Franks: Reminder, that time isn’t a straight line. It can twist into any shape and as such, this is a fully spoiled podcast. We might bring things in from later in the show, the comics, the books, or even fan theories and articles – and fan fiction!
Lucia Kelly: With that out of the way, Cassandra’s about to kill us all to profit off our rival companies, so let’s get in the TARDIS!
Lucia Kelly: Hey there, this is Talia and Lucia from the future here, popping in to remind you that we aren’t British. We’re from the United States and Australia, and that means that we don’t always get things 100% right when talking about how systems work in the UK. Our external lens and unique perspectives are part of why we wanted to make this podcast, but are a gap that we recognize when we are talking about the show in this and all of our episodes.
For this episode in particular, we want to also put in a content warning for discussions of trauma, self sacrifice and suicide, PTSD, acts of war, death, ableism, racism, and transphobia.
Lucia Kelly: So, what I love about Season One, and they don’t do it for any of the other seasons, which is kind of upsetting, they do this a couple of times, where episodes will run directly off from each other. So, there’s no time between the end of “Rose” and the start of “The End of the World.”
We have the little recap, and then Rose literally runs into the TARDIS.
Talia Franks: Except –
Lucia Kelly: And I love that.
Talia Franks: – that Rose doesn’t wash her fucking hands. I know that there wasn’t a Pepperoni in 2005, but you still got your hands, Rose, you were touching that dirty chain, like, I know you got the bronze, but don’t you also have rope burns? What the hell?!
Lucia Kelly: Do you have rope burns? Do you have chain burns? Did you also get the bronze in hygiene? We have questions.
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: None of which are answered.
Talia Franks: I’m just saying!
Lucia Kelly: But yes, Rose runs into the TARDIS, abandoning Mickey in an alleyway and her mother, no thought for either of them, (Lucia laughs) But this isn’t about them, we’re never going to see them this episode, except for very briefly, we’re going to see Jackie, and –
Talia Franks: I know this is – Okay. Okay. Okay. Sorry. Sidebar. Sidebar. (Lucia laughs) When is that for Jackie?
Lucia Kelly: I do not think it’s –
Talia Franks: I think that is before Rose left.
Lucia Kelly: Me too. I don’t think the events of “Rose” have happened at the time that phone call comes through.
Talia Franks: Me either.
Lucia Kelly: Because if it was in real time,, if we’re looking at Rose as the consistent timeline, if we’re following Rose’s time, Jackie would not be reacting to Rose like that – in that casual way, in that sort of, it’s just another Wednesday – if the events of “Rose” had happened.
Talia Franks: She really wouldn’t.
Lucia Kelly: It’s – she wouldn’t. So, who knows, who knows when she called Jackie?
Okay so, The Doctor takes Rose on a magical adventure, and he’s like, “Where do you want to go, backwards or forwards?” And she’s like, “Forwards!”, and he’s like, “Cool!” And I love this – he’s like, “Let’s go to the 22nd Century. No, actually, let’s go to the new Roman empire. Let’s do this, let’s do that,” and it’s a mark of both Billie and Christopher’s acting, that when I’m watching that scene, I 100% believe that the things he’s saying are just outside those doors, nothing has happened, but I do.
Talia Franks: So I believe it, but also, I was making sex jokes in my head, (Lucia laughs) because she was like, “Oh, you’re so impressive.” And then he’s like, “Just watch me.” And then he’s, like, jerking (Talia starts breaking down into giggles) – he’s, like, jerking the TARDIS and like –
Lucia Kelly: No! (horrified but also laughing)
Talia Franks: I’m sorry! But, like, she was saying that he was impressive and then he’s like, just watch me. And then he’s like –
Lucia Kelly: They’re not there yet! They’re not there yet, okay?! They barely know each other!
Talia Franks: But, she’s like, egging him on and telling him to be more impressive, and he’s like pumping the – like, that didn’t occur to me the first, 10,000 times I watched this episode, cause I’ve watched this episode so many times, but this time, like, I could not unsee it. It’s just them grinning at each other and I – (dissolves into giggles)
Lucia Kelly: The things that poor TARDIS has seen. I feel so sorry for her. (Lucia starts laughing) She has to be a silent observer to so much bullshit.
Talia Franks: You’d feel even more sorry for her if you’d read some of the fanfics I have. Yeah, no, we’re not going to see the TARDIS alive until season… six?
Lucia Kelly: Sev- Six or seven. One of them.
Talia Franks: Not Seven.
Lucia Kelly: I know it’s the one that Neil Gaiman wrote, but that’s all I can remember.
Talia Franks: Yeah, it’s really good.
Lucia Kelly: Yes. Oh no. Don’t make me think about that moment. Don’t make me think about that scene. We’re talking about the Doctor and Rose’s first date, which yeah. Oh my gosh. Let’s talk about the fact, this is the episode where we truly establish the Doctor as a trauma victim and in particular, a war veteran with PTSD, because what does he do?
He has just experienced, regardless of the theory about there’s a hundred years between this episode and the last episode for the Doctor, he is still so much living in that trauma – cause what’s just happened – what we find out at the end of the episode – is that what is happening to the Earth now, happened to Gallifrey not that long ago. We will later find out that it wasn’t a Sun. It wasn’t a natural occurrence. The Doctor did it on purpose. The Doctor was the reason that Gallifrey is no longer viable. Um –
Talia Franks: And Rose.
Lucia Kelly: – and Rose, yeah. Ro – Rose “The Moment” Rose. It’s –
Talia Franks: I’m just saying, Rose was there.
Lucia Kelly: Rose was there. And what he does for their first date to be like, “Let me show you the world. I’m going to show your whole planet burning.” Is this the Doctor trying to create shared trauma with Rose?
Talia Franks: I mean – I –
Lucia Kelly: Kind of?
Talia Franks: Kind of.
Lucia Kelly: Like, is this, is this his way of getting to the point, at the end where he’s like, “By the way, my whole planet’s dead.” Like, “I don’t feel comfortable saying that out loud until you recognize the full depth of what that means, so I’m just going to traumatize you, real quick.”
Talia Franks: I gotta also say, for me, this episode hit really different. – for all the jokes about not washing hands – this episode really different watching it in the midst of the pandemic. (Lucia hmms in agreement) Because, for me, watching the whole Earth – die and explode and, like, all the people gone from it.
But more importantly, the fact that after all that happened, they go back to what the world was like before, like, the fact that the Doctor can just reverse everything, and there’s that quote that the Doctor says that I’ve heard a million times, I think I have it written down in a journal, but this time when I heard it and I was watching, it actually made me tear up (Lucia hums in sympathy) was, the Doctor says “You think it’ll last forever, people and cars and concrete, but it won’t. One day it’s all gone. Even the sky.”
And then he says “My planet’s gone. It’s dead. It burned like the Earth. It’s just rocks and dust, before it’s time.” It hurt to hear that. I mean, obviously the planet is still mostly here, but with the pandemic and climate change and like, everything that has been going on, it’s – Oh, my God. It’s really scary and in my mind, it just hit different than it did the first time I watched this episode in high school. Or even, like I said, I’ve been rewatching these episodes with my dad, and so when we first watched this episode together recently and I first heard that line, it really hit me, and then when I heard it again, it hit me again. And so yeah, the last couple of times that I’ve watched this episode, it’s been really real.
Lucia Kelly: It has. And also, given we’re talking about this, I just want to point out what a – every time I think about it, I just get blown away by what a ballsy move that was. Cause, Old Who, right? The Time Lords are still 100% there.
The Doctor has removed himself from that society on purpose, and also been banished for a part of that as well. He and Time Lord society have a very tenuous relationship. But they’re always still there. Gallifrey is still always there. The Time Lords are still always there. You can always go back and see them, and he’s very much established as being connected to a society, even if he’s not part of it, to then – As the Revival, to literally blow it out of the sky and be like, “Nope. He’s the last Time Lord now. There are no Time Lords left. This is it. Gallifrey no longer exists.”
To do that, and to make the Doctor a war veteran, suffering from PTSD, it shifts the dynamic of the show so completely. Suddenly there’s a whole new backstory to the Doctor that has never been there before, and there’s a whole new dynamic to the Doctor, and there’s a whole new depth to him, that has never been explored before.
And it’s just – it’s so ballsy. Like I can’t – that’s such a crazy thing – I want to be in the writers’ room when that idea came up. I want to know how Russell T Davies was like, “Oh, and by the way, we’re blowing up Gallifrey.” Like, what was that conversation like?
Talia Franks: I kind of wonder almost if that was – I don’t know if that was his idea, or if that was the idea that got them to reboot Doctor Who. I don’t know what got Doctor Who rebooted. I think the 1996 movie was originally supposed to be a reboot.
Lucia Kelly: It was what is referred to in the business as a backdoor pilot. Basically, a backdoor pilot is something where – it’s often used in context of standalone movies or an episode within a previously established TV show that basically acts like a pilot for a new show.
So it’s basically about testing the waters, seeing what people think about it, how people react, without actually putting any real money behind it. (Lucia laughs)
I do want to mention that very briefly – because it comes up later – we have this moment with Rose where when they’re walking through the space ship or, as the Doctor points out, it’s more of an observation deck, about the definition of people versus aliens.
So there’s this very brief moment. It’s a two second conversation, where the Doctor says, “There’s going to be all these people around.” There’s a intercom announcement referring to guests and Rose is like, “So when it says guests, does that mean people?” The Doctor responds, “Depends on what you mean by people.” Rose says, “I mean people. What do you mean?” The Doctor says “Aliens.”
I would like to point out, at this point in time, Rose is also an alien.
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: They are all aliens.
Talia Franks: Yeah, so the vibes I get from this is that Ro – So, the Doctor’s answering Rose’s question. (Lucia hmms in agreement) So the Doctor is understanding that when Rose says people, she means humans.
Lucia Kelly: Yep.
Talia Franks: So when the Doctor says “It depends on what you mean by people.” And she says, “I mean, people, what do you mean?” And he says, “Aliens,” meaning when I say people I mean, aliens. (Lucia hmms in agreement) I always interpreted that as to him, people are aliens.
Lucia Kelly: And, the subject of people, like the subject of personhood, is throughout the whole episode. Not only with Cassandra’s overt racism and ridiculous bigotry –
Talia Franks: because Cassandra says that at the end too. She says “It depends on your definition of people, and that’s a technicality to keep your lawyers dizzy for centuries.”
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. So I get the feeling – when the Doctor says “people” and what we, as the audience, are meant to take as “people” is “sentient being” like, it’s not got anything to do with who or what you grew up as, what your species is, like, do you have the capacity to speak? Do you have the capacity to communicate? Do you have the capacity to think as a sentient being? That makes you a person.
Which also feeds into this whole – the staff –
Talia Franks: Let’s –
Lucia Kelly: Which is just –
Talia Franks: Let’s talk about the blue people and the trees, okay?
Lucia Kelly: Mmhmm!
Talia Franks: Two things.
Lucia Kelly: The – yeah..
Talia Franks: All the staff are blue. All of them, except for the Steward, are little people. And… why is that?
Lucia Kelly: Why is that? Why have we made that choice?
Talia Franks: Yeah. Why?
Lucia Kelly: It just – the fact that they’re not allowed to speak unless they are given direct permission, and the fact that they are all painted blue, which, let’s be very real, in Sci-Fi, a Black person is usually given a full body paint job in either green or blue.
Talia Franks: Yeah –
Lucia Kelly: Like, they’re not allowed to be Black On Screen in a Sci-Fi environment.
Talia Franks: Yeah, and let’s also talk about the fact that the one person who actually gets a speaking role speaks in English and not like –
And also that the TARDIS translates everything, so they should be able to translate the staff, except it doesn’t translate the staff, even when talking to the Doctor, who’s supposedly can speak every language, but then there’s this one random person who like is able to –
Lucia Kelly: Raffalo?
Talia Franks: – speak to Rose –
Lucia Kelly: Raffalo the plumber?
Talia Franks: Yeah. Raffalo. Yeah. So Raffalo is super subservient and thanks Rose for giving her permission to talk? Like, it’s super, super creepy. I get bad vibes from all of it. And then she gets murked!
Lucia Kelly: She does! Immediately!
Talia Franks: And the Steward also gets murked! And then all the other staff don’t have speaking roles, and most of them survive? We assume? But like –
Lucia Kelly: They are closer to the ground and the light seems to be coming from above, so they might’ve been fairly safe, actually…
Talia Franks: Yeah, but it’s like –
Lucia Kelly: Being small would have been at an advantage in that situation.
Talia Franks: Yeah, but it didn’t help the guy who – and also! Oh! Let’s also talk about, what was his name, the other –
Lucia Kelly: The Moxx of Balhoon?
Talia Franks: The Moxx of Balhoon, who was also blue, who was one of the only characters who was in a chair and thus – I don’t know. It wasn’t really a wheelchair, it was like a hover chair.
Lucia Kelly: It was coded as a wheelchair though, like –
Talia Franks: It was coded as a wheelchair, and he dies. This episode is incredibly abelist, I’m just saying. And then also Cassandra’s definition of people, cause when he dies, the staff members die, and Oh, why am I blanking?
Lucia Kelly: The Steward?
Talia Franks: The – Yeah, the Steward dies and Jade, Jabe, her name’s Jabe.
Lucia Kelly: Jabe. Yep.
Talia Franks: And Jabe dies which –
Lucia Kelly: She did not need to die. She did not need to die. I’m so pissed about this. Both Jabe and the Doctor know that he is a Time Lord. He can regenerate. Jabe is made of wood. The Doctor could hold that damn lever down, and he would survive, and Jabe can go turn off the damn switch.
She does not need to die.
Talia Franks: She does not.
Lucia Kelly: It is completely stupid. It’s completely pointless. It’s just killing a Black woman for no reason.
Talia Franks: Yeah. And, also, she’s also a Black woman who’s not allowed to be Black. She has to be a tree.
Lucia Kelly: Mmhmm.
Talia Franks: Um, and the, and then also just sidebar, talking about trees, she talks about how she’s descended from the –
Lucia Kelly: Tropical Rainforest?
Talia Franks: Tropical Rainforest.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, because she doesn’t even say which rainforest.
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: She’s like, “I know I’ve got it in my ances-tree.” Like –
Talia Franks: Yeah, no. And then, the worst part of that for me was like, okay, wait a minute. If the trees are descended from trees on Earth, and all the people are gone from Earth, does that mean Earth doesn’t have trees anymore?
Lucia Kelly: It’s green when we look at it, so…
Talia Franks: The Earth is green, but plants are sentient. And also personally for me, in my particular tradition, I also see all parts of the Earth and plants as having their own spirit and energy, and if the Earth were destroyed, I would mourn the deaths of all the plants and all of that, and everything, the same way that I would mourn deaths of animals. And (Lucia hmms in agreement) also I feel like I have a very strong connection to nature in that way. So for me, the deaths of all of those trees and all of those plants and all of that, and also all the insects!
Lucia Kelly: Mmhmm.
Talia Franks: Like, I hope all the insects are gone from Earth! And are they sure all the animals are gone? Cause some animals burrow pretty deeply in the earth. So when they say “All the people are gone”, they just mean all the humans, like –
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, or “human-adjacents” as Cassandra would say.
Talia Franks: Yeah. They just mean all of the “sentient beings” are gone from Earth – that they know about – It’s quite possible even that there are pockets of humans, or human-adjacents, or other sentient creatures that they just don’t know about – that weren’t afforded –
Lucia Kelly: Personhood.
Talia Franks: Yeah. And I just –
Lucia Kelly: Yep. But also, thank God Rose did talk to Raffalo because this is the moment where she realizes the depth of what she’s done. (Lucia starts laughing)
She has this whole moment where she realizes she’s done the equivalent of just literally running into a strange man’s white unmarked van.
Talia Franks: Also the moment where she and the Doctor are fighting and then she gives up because she’s like, “Well, as my mate. Shareen, says – “
Lucia Kelly: Shareen says!
Talia Franks: Shareen!
Lucia Kelly: We get Shareen!
Talia Franks: Shareen!
Lucia Kelly: Our first mention of Shareen!
Talia Franks: Yeah, “As my mate Shareen says, ‘Don’t argue with the designated driver.'” And I’m just like, Oh, (Lucia hmms in agreement) I also just get such creepy vibes from – so much of this.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, that whole conversation is again, in the vein of, this theme of personhood and identity. So, Rose is going through culture shock, right? And this is again, what makes me feel like, the Doctor has not had a companion in a really long time and definitely hasn’t had a human companion in a really long time, because what he does is he takes her from normal 2005, regular London. And just immediately, not drops her in the deep end, like slam dunks her into the deep end. It’s “This is what it is! Your planet’s dead! There are hundreds of different types of aliens. You’re all alone. I’m your only contact, by the way. I’m the only person with the keys. And also my ship gets into your brain and translates for you.” Like, holy shit, man! Don’t do that!
Talia Franks: Yeah, no. Also, remember, even though Billie Piper is an adult, she is 19!
Lucia Kelly: 19!
Talia Franks: Okay, and also, not only is she 19, but also, she left school when she was 15!
Lucia Kelly: 15. So she’s also not fully educated either, like –
Talia Franks: She’s not fully educated and has just been working since then. And like, yeah, working full-time is an education, in and of itself, but it also means the culture shock is almost double because she just hasn’t been exposed to – like for me, obviously I know that education is different in the UK versus US, but I didn’t really start learning a lot of world history until my later years in high school. Like, yeah, we learned a lot of it in middle school and some of it in freshman year of high school, but a lot of it and especially a lot of stuff about global politics, a lot of it ended up being in later years. (Lucia hmms in agreement) I don’t even know, maybe the educational system in the UK is better. I hope that it is.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, Rose has got the equivalent of a Year 9, Year 10, education. It’s just so – and this is why we need to talk about the power dynamic between the Doctor and their companions, because it’s not talked about, it’s not talking about in show and it’s not talked about in analysis of the show, all of the companions, but particularly Rose, is so at the mercy of – the Doctor has all the power in this relationship, (Talia hmms in agreement) and it’s so – I know the word gets bandied about a lot, but it’s so toxic. And the fact that it’s not talked about, the fact that it’s not discussed, the fact that that’s not out in the open, means that the Doctor is allowed to go on and live in a world – and live in a reality – that is completely disconnected from the reality that his companions are living in and they don’t talk about that difference in experience, and that difference in reality. And like, they get mad at their companions going and wandering off and doing stupid things or like, “Why did you do that?” Or “That doesn’t make sense,” but from their perspective, it does make sense because very often they’re left abandoned with no rules and no sort of understanding of when or where they are and what the rules are.
It’s a parent dynamic where the parent has established no discipline.
Talia Franks: Yeah. And also, sometimes, also, sometimes it’s just, really dangerous and really upsetting. We’ll get there, but some of the episodes, like “Rings of Akhaten”, like Clara and Eleven, just grinds my gears.
There’s a point where –
Lucia Kelly: Clara and Eleven are very particular dynamic. Clara is also like – I’m so – Clara and River Song are going to be interesting to talk about.
(singing) Women written by men. It’s a fun subject to explore.
Talia Franks: Yeah, but –
Lucia Kelly: But let’s talk about fantastic, beautiful men. The Face of Boe is here!
Talia Franks: AKA Captain Jack Harkness at 11 million years. (Talia giggles)
Lucia Kelly: We find out, there’s a sideline, that the Face of Boe has in fact organized this event. So Jack organized this, this is his party. He does not say hi to the Doctor at all. He does not acknowledge his existence, and I love that. And I actually thought back, cause I was like, wait, did Jack know the Ninth Doctor, but he 100% does. That’s the first Doctor he meets. So there’s not even the excuse –
Talia Franks: He kisses him!
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. So there’s not even the excuse of like, “Well, he doesn’t know that’s the Doctor,” he 100% knows that’s him, but he does not say anything and it’s so del –
I love – I love the pettiness of that.
I love the fact that Jack in his beautiful queer self was like, “You know what, I’m not going to say anything. And then three weeks after he realises my identity as The Face of Boe, he’s going to wake up in the middle of the night and go, ‘That bastard! He didn’t say hi to me!'”
Talia Franks: Okay. So the thing is, Nine is the Doctor who abandoned him.
Lucia Kelly: That is so true.
Talia Franks: Nine is the Doctor who knew him first and who abandoned him.
Lucia Kelly: Hang on. Doctor’s advocate. The Doctor did think that Jack was dead.
Talia Franks: No, he didn’t! He knew that Jack was alive. He knew that Rose had resurrected him.
Lucia Kelly: Did he?
Talia Franks: Yeah. No. When Jack comes back, with Martha, Jack asks why the Doctor left him and the Doctor says that he knew Jack was alive, but he was wrong. That he shouldn’t exist. That he was a fixed point in the universe and he shouldn’t still be alive. That is – I hate that so much, –
Lucia Kelly: Oh! I’d forgotten about that!
Talia Franks: – Like I hate Ten for that moment so much, like –
Lucia Kelly: Oof, Rough.
Talia Franks: – So actually, nevermind, Ten is the Doctor tha t I can’t stand with Jack, but actually,I got to say, that I lied when I said River Song was the only companion that I ship with the Doctor. I also shipped Jack with the Doctor, because Jack –
Lucia Kelly: Yep
Talia Franks: – is actually immortal and super old, and so is in the Doctors age range, cause Jack knows how problematic the Doctor is, and has had time to reflect, and I feel like (Lucia hmms in agreement) Jack is one of the only people who like sees the Doctor for who they are.
Lucia Kelly: Very much.
Talia Franks: And especially after “Children of the Earth” and what Jack has been forced to do. I feel like Jack is one of the only people, aside from the Master, who can truly understand what the Doctor has been through. I would say if there’s anyone other than the Master who I shipped with the Doctor it’s Jack.
Lucia Kelly: Also Jack ships himself with everyone, so… (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: I will say, actually, I ship Jack with pretty much everyone, yeah.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: Because also – Okay, so the only person I ship Jack with emotionally is the Doctor. (Lucia hmms in agreement)
Lucia Kelly: more Personhood theme! The way that Jabe treats Rose. Don’t do that!
Talia Franks: Don’t do that!
Lucia Kelly: Don’t do that!
Talia Franks: Don’t do –
Lucia Kelly: Prostitute? (Lucia laughs) Wife? And at least Rose calls it out where it’s like, “Whatever I am, I must be invisible. Address me please, Ma’am,” but Jesus!
I had not realized until we started talking about it, just how much personhood was a theme in this episode. Which is even touched upon when she’s – where Rose is like. “They’re alien, they’re so alien, like you look at them, and they’re alien.” And then the Doctor, which again, thank God it gets called out, he’s like “Good thing I didn’t take you to the Deep South,” Dickhead! Stop saying things like that!
Talia Franks: Yeah, no. And then she’s like, “Stop making cheap shots about the Deep South,” like –
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, like “I’m going through a moment here. A moment you put me in. The least you can do is care for me.”
Talia Franks: Yeah, and also, like, not make jokes about racism (Lucia hmms in agreement)
Lucia Kelly: Also, “Can you get your ship to ask permission before it invades my head, please?”
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: Like, can we talk about that? Can we talk about consent maybe? Cause that’s not okay either.
Talia Franks: Yeah. And also, circling back to Jabe for a second, (Lucia hmms in agreement) can we talk about the fact that she talks about “Identify his species” and then she’s like, “Stop that! Tell me his race!” and I’m like, “Oh! Ooh, ah! urgh! I don’t like that – “
Lucia Kelly: I hate that. First of all, this is going to lead into my “science that doesn’t make sense.” She takes one photo from the front – I know this isn’t the main issue, but this is the bit that stuck out to me, because now I’m focusing on all the science bits – she takes one photo of the Doctor from the front. We then get a closeup on the little screen. It now has a rotational 3-D model. Excuse me, where did that come from?
Talia Franks: Oh no, she doesn’t take a photo. She takes a scan. Like it’s –
Lucia Kelly: It’s still only from one side, hun. It’s still only from one side. She needs to rotate around him to get that full coverage. It makes no sense.
I’m so annoyed.
Talia Franks: Okay. Okay.
Lucia Kelly: Also, especially combined with that little – Last episode, we didn’t talk about it, but Jackie is not an unproblematic fave, she does have her moments, and there’s this one moment, in the last episode, where she’s talking about getting compensation from the government, and she mentioned her friend, who got money off the Council because someone behind the desk told her that she looked Greek, and even though she is Greek, that’s not the point. And – (Lucia makes a noise like, “that’s not great.”)
Talia Franks: No, okay, so actually I do understand why she got compensation for this because I do get what – Okay, so actually, in this moment, I fault Rose not Jackie.
Lucia Kelly: Interesting.
Talia Franks: So Rose says (Talia means to say Jackie here) I know she is Greek but that’s not the point.
So, I took that to mean that the person was saying that she looked Greek in a negative and racist way, and that’s why she got the compensation, because –
Lucia Kelly: Okay.
Talia Franks: – I do know, I’m not totally well-versed on the politics of the UK and everything, but I do know that they have a lot of anti-immigrant sentiment –
Lucia Kelly: Yep.
Talia Franks: – and I’ve seen a lot of discourse about the fact that anti-Black racism is not the only kind of racism that they have over there.
Lucia Kelly: Oh yeah.
Talia Franks: There is a lot of racism against Europeans who are not Anglo-Saxon and also really anyone who does not fit the description. Basically there’s a lot of racism there. (Lucia hmms in agreement) So basically, what I took that to mean was that she got compensation because someone was being nasty to her because of her ethnicity, and so I fault Rose for not recognizing that this person was being racist.
Lucia Kelly: Okay. And that’s also something we’ve got to recognize, is that this show was written, and built, and made, by people who lived within that system.
Like, primarily by white people, primarily by white men, this show is written by. And so there’s a lot of stuff in here that – I think I used the term last episode too, as “Nouveau Wokeness”. So this is like, just when people are starting to realize that privilege is a thing, (Lucia laughs) and so there’s a lot of work to call that out, but without any education or direction, so it all comes off as very bad.
Talia Franks: It all comes off as very bad and very lightweight, and so it does lead people to fault Jackie, it does lead people to think that Jackie’s being extra, and Rose’s dismissal of it and Rose’s saying ” Oh, she shouldn’t have gotten compensation for it,” is actually de-legitimizing this issue. (Lucia hmms in agreement)
This is an actual issue, that someone was being racist towards Jackie’s friend, but this dismissal of it makes it seem like it’s a joke.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: And we’ve been so busy talking about the racism that we haven’t even gotten to the implicit transphobia.
Lucia Kelly: Oh yeah, let’s talk about that.
So Cassandra has this off-hand line and she and – First of all, Rose refers to her as Michael Jackson, which is… okay.
But, Cassandra and Rose looking down on Earth and they’re having this conversation and Cassandra says “That’s where I used to live, when I was a little boy, down there.”
Talia Franks: Yeah. And I just – that makes me so mad. There’s just so much to unpack there, I kind of want to throw away the suitcase, but, so, especially as a trans person, I am just so offended. I’m not offended at the fact that there’s a trans character in the show, cause that’s fine. I actually think it would be good to have an explicitly trans character in the show, but the fact that it’s sort of implicit, that it’s played for laughs, that that person is in fact a bitchy trampoline, is like, what the hell?
It’s not even like it’s a mistranslation or anything because Rose has that in her head, like, Rose understands it as English.
So to dial it back, Cassandra says “When I was a little boy,” so that implies that when Cassandra was younger, she identified as a boy, so that means that either she transitioned or is gender fluid or some sort of thing was going on where she is gender nonconforming, and I’ve always interpreted her as being gender nonconforming also because of her later episode, “New Earth”.
But, in this particular episode, it just plays into how the only real representation that queer people and trans people are given in media is as villains, and often as super campy villains, (Lucia hmms in agreement) like villainy villains.
And a lot of times it’s villains that we get the urge to identify with because we’re like, “Oh, this is someone that I think is really interesting and cool. Like, I love Sacha Dhawan’s Master, I love Missy. I’m not really a fan of Simm’s Master because –
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: He’s racist. (Lucia laughs) We’re gonna get to his whole keeping Black people as slaves on a ship for a year, Oh, we’ll get there. But, like, the fact that we’re at episode two and we’re having this is just –
Yeah, there’s a reason that I hardly ever watch this episode and it’s almost entirely because of Cassandra pissing me off. But yeah, no like, Cassandra is both a delight and someone who makes me very angry.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. Yeah.
Talia Franks: Her first episode just makes me so angry, because she’s so terrible and also the thing that makes me most upset in this episode is the way that the Doctor just ruthlessly lets her die.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no, we will get to that. Similarly to Jackie last episode, Cassandra is mainly played for a joke, which I think is the core of the issue. She’s played for a joke, and the joke is that Cassandra is a high femme, campy, supervillain. That’s the whole joke.
Talia Franks: Who doesn’t know anything about what she is supposed to be an expert on. She doesn’t know how to be human, even though she’s the last human. She doesn’t know what an iPod really is. She doesn’t know what a traditional Earth ballad is. She is wrong about everything that she claims to know. And she’s also not a white supremacist, but a human supremacist? (Lucia hmms in agreement) And a hyper capitalist. So she’s all of the -ist’s. Oh, and she also apparently has had a lot of husbands.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. That whole, she’s a femme fatale.
So with Jackie, it was like, we’re going to make fun of the stereotype of the tight-fisted single mum, and in this episode we’re making fun of high femme trans women, and it’s like, wow, you guys are not doing good. Two for two.
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: Wow.
Talia Franks: It’s bad. It’s really bad. And when we get to next episode, they’re gonna make fun of the simple servant girl, so that’s fun.
Lucia Kelly: Yep. Yep. Actually, you know what, we’re going to get there – I think they do slightly better with Gwen. It’s still not great, but I think they do slightly better with giving her agency and making her – we’ll get there when we get there, but I think they’re a little better with Gwen.
Talia Franks: They undo it when she sacrifices herself. They do good and then undo it because she sacrifices herself for all of them. It’s an automatic loss when they killed themselves.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no. Fair. Okay. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: I’m serious. It’s an automatic loss if they die for the cause at the end, in my opinion.
Lucia Kelly: So having talked about all the problematic things in this episode, let’s talk about how they kill the Steward who’s just doing his goddamn job.
The tone with which he says “Will the owner with the blue box -,” it’s the exact same tone as like, “Will the owner of the blue Subaru -,” I have never identified with the character more.
Talia Franks: Yeah. And when he’s like, “What are you doing here?” and then he immediately accommodates, and also when, he says “I’ve never had – I’ve done this on this platform, and this platform, and I’ve never had a problem.” And it’s just so upsetting, because he’s clearly good at his job. He’s ascended to a position of relative power, and then he’s just frantically pushing computer buttons. And then he’s just like –
Lucia Kelly: He’s dead!
Talia Franks: By the spiders!
Lucia Kelly: He’s murdered. Murdered by the spiders.
Talia Franks: And then they say “There’s a horrible smell.” And the Doctor’s like, “I think that’s the Steward.” And it’s just like –
Lucia Kelly: Yeah.
Talia Franks: – Sickening.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. It’s awful. It’s so, so bad.
Talia Franks: It’s so, so bad.
Lucia Kelly: But before that even happens, the Doctor and Jabe have had a conversation, and this is where the episode gets a five out of five for acting because, Oh my God. The way that the Time Lord story is teased out from the beginning of “Rose” to the end of “The End of the World” is so intricately done, and the emotion on Christopher Eccleston’s face, that single tear.
Talia Franks: The single – like I was –
Lucia Kelly: I just –
Talia Franks: I could – (Lucia is overcome) I could feel it!
Lucia Kelly: And you see how close to the surface that is, like how close the Doctor is to breaking, (Talia hmms in agreement) and I wonder – So, I want to know the thought pattern that made him take Rose to this place, because what’s happening, like, he’s traumatizing Rose, we’ve established that, he’s also retraumatizing himself. He is recreating the circumstances in which he went through a major trauma, in which he is also making the explicit decision not to save the world.
He is choosing to let it die, in the same way that he chose to let Gallifrey die.
Talia Franks: And also cause –
Lucia Kelly: And –
Talia Franks: – Earth is like his second home! (Lucia hmms in agreement) Where he has –
Lucia Kelly: He loves Earth.
Talia Franks: He loves Earth. He has found so many companions there. And I almost wonder if that’s why he’s done it.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. It feels very much like trying to come to terms with a traumatic experience by recreating it. Being like, “If I can go through this again, and not cry, I’m cured!” And it’s like, “That’s not how it works, hun. Please go to therapy.”
Talia Franks: And I almost wonder if that moment, where he and Rose go back, is part of why he does it, because he wants that experience of watching it all end, and also the reassurance of being able to go back to before it ended.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, cause the other tragic thing is that – I can’t remember, who puts the Time Lock on Gallifrey? Is it the Doctor?
Talia Franks: I think so.
Lucia Kelly: Because that’s the other thing, is that he can’t go back to Gallifrey at all. (Talia hmms in agreement) Like, he can’t have that. He brings Rose back to the present – or at least the 21st Century. Again, she doesn’t contact Mickey. She doesn’t contact Jackie. She’s like “That was a super traumatizing experience. Let’s go get chips, strange new man I just met,”
Talia Franks: “And then let’s go to the 1800’s!”
Lucia Kelly: Alright. Also! I mportant to mention! This is the first mention of Bad Wolf! Bad Wolf is mentioned very, very briefly. There is a moment where the Moxx of Balhoon is talking to the Face of Boe, it’s an establishing shot of the lobby, we’re clearly coming in the middle of a conversation, and he says, “Indubitably, this is the Bad Wolf scenario. I find the inherent laxity of the ongoing multi-verse – blah blah blah blah blah,” So, we are already laying that groundwork. Very interesting. I was always under the impression that the first mention of Bad Wolf was next episode, but it’s not, it happens here.
Talia Franks: Yeah. I hadn’t even caught that.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, beautiful. So, is there anything else that you would like to say Talia before we get to our big points?
Talia Franks: Not really. That about covers most of it.
Oh wait, no there was two moments or – okay, so the thing that made me interested was what you were talking about with whether or not the Doctor can interact with Gallifrey and other Time Lords, is because the Doctor does interact with other Time Lords. And so how does that work if Gallifrey is Time Locked?
Lucia Kelly: I think the way we can resolve this, is that it’s specifically, the Doctor’s TARDIS is not allowed on Gallifrey. I think it’s that, if the Doctor tries to go to any point in Gallifrey before it gets blown up on his TARDIS, or if he tries to – If he’s the one establishing the contact, it doesn’t work, but Gallifrey can contact him.
Talia Franks: No, because the Doctor – or maybe it’s because Gallifrey isn’t actually gone or whatever.
Lucia Kelly: Mmmm. Yeah. Which – Ugh…
Talia Franks: Or, but – No, cause the Doctor definitely interacts with other Time Lords and with past versions of himself.
Lucia Kelly: That’s fine. I think he can do that. That’s fine. It’s the actual place of Gallifrey. Like, he can’t go back to Gallifrey, but if they want to meet on a neutral moon, that’s fine.
Talia Franks: Okay. That’s –
I would have to say, this isn’t my favorite moment, but I kind of was a little bit delighted by two moments, which is where Cassandra gets mad at the Doctor and says, “I bet you were the school swot and never got kissed.” (Lucia laughs) That line is hilarious. And –
Lucia Kelly: I love that that’s her come back, though. Like, she’s just been revealed to be behind this major conspiracy, involved in multiple murders, scheme. And she’s like, “You were never kissed as a boy.” And I’m like “That’s your comeback?”
Talia Franks: And then also, when the world is about to end, the Doctor’s like, “You lot, just chill.” when, the ship is heating up and they’re all about to die.
Lucia Kelly: That just reminded me, this is the first time, but it won’t be the last time, that we lock Rose in a room to remove her agency, and I hate that.
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: So Rose gets locked in the room, the door’s literally melted, and then we just switched to Jabe being the companion for the rest of the episode. And it’s so –
Talia Franks: Yeah, and also when Rose gets trapped and Charles Dickens is the companion, and it’s just – how –
Lucia Kelly: Yeah!
Talia Franks: – many times is Rose going to get locked in a room. Like, why do we do this?
But anyway, I guess if we’re going to move along to our least favorite moments and our most favourite moments.
What is your least favorite moment of this episode?
Lucia Kelly: My least favorite moment is when Jabe dies, because I get so mad every time. It’s so unnecessary. It’s so stupid. We’re just killing a Black woman to kill a Black woman. There’s no point of it. It’s also that the Doctor can have this moment of serenity, connection to his people, before he steps through a fan.
It’s so pointless and stupid and annoying, and it’s completely avoidable, and it makes me so angry every time.
Talia Franks: And also the other reason it’s completely avoidable is because if he was able to do that, he could have done that the whole time. (Lucia hmms in agreement) She didn’t need to be holding down the lever.
Lucia Kelly: Also, he could just use the TARDIS to get there.
We’ve established the TARDIS works within the observation deck. The world is ending. The teleportation ban is no longer in effect. Don’t worry about it. Let’s just turn off the switch. Use the bloody TARDIS!
Talia Franks: Yeah. Yeah. Like, the TARDIS is awesome. (Lucia: It makes me so angry.) It’s being stored with the other shuttles just go to the TARDIS. Even if it took a while to get to the TARDIS, the TARDIS is a fucking –
Lucia Kelly: Time machine!
Talia Franks: Obviously, you can’t go back on your whole timeline, but you can go back a couple of minutes.
The Doctor’s done that before, gone back a couple minutes, just to like, make sure that he’s – (Talia takes a deep breath) Okay.
Lucia Kelly: Okay.
Talia Franks: Anyway, but Cassandra broke the teleportation ban. The Doctor can too. The Steward’s not even there anymore because he got –
Lucia Kelly: Who’s going to tattle on you? Just do it! Save the world!
Talia Franks: Yeah. And it’s – Anyway, that’s also my least favorite moment.
I would say favorite moment, is that moment that has made me cry the past two rewatches, but like “You think that it will last forever, people, and cars, and concrete,” because dramatic things and sad things make me cry.
I am obsessed with the cycle of life and death.
Lucia Kelly: My favorite moment is going to sound really shallow compared to that. My favorite moment is when “Toxic” starts playing. I love it every time. (Lucia and Talia laugh) It’s so funny. I love that these are “Traditional Ballads by the World’s Greatest Composers”, and we play “Tainted Love” by Soft Cell and “Toxic” by Britney Spears. Because – Yes!
Talia Franks: Okay “Toxic” by Britney Spears is in fact a ballad of the best sort.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, so. I think it’s a case of Cassandra is not always right, but she’s got the spirit. She knows her stuff sometimes.
Talia Franks: Who would you say is the Hero and the Adam? I mean, the Adam is obviously Cassandra, no contest, in my opinion.
Lucia Kelly: I suppose she is, because there’s no one else, but I hate giving her the Adam, because I love her so much. It feels so – It feels so wrong, but I need to give it to her, because there is no one else, that’s “You were actually the worst.”
Talia Franks: She’s the worst.
Lucia Kelly: She is the worst. So she has to get it, but –
Talia Franks: She’s the worst. (A notable silence from Lucia) She’s not like an Adam worst, but she is, like, the worst.
Lucia Kelly: She is. She’s the worst in this episode. And for that, she must receive the Adam.
Hero… I’m going to say Jabe.
Talia Franks: Yeah. I was going to say Jabe also.
Lucia Kelly: Because –
Talia Franks: She sacrificed herself, because the Doctor was being a –
Lucia Kelly: Because no one was thinking. No one was thinking of the trees. (Lucia sighs)
Talia Franks: How are we going to grade this?
Lucia Kelly: All right. So for direction…
Talia Franks: I’d give it a five.
Lucia Kelly: I’ll give it a fi – Yeah, no, I think I might actually change that to production value, because we end up talking about a lot about this stuff as well. Yeah. So it’s now about production. Yeah, everything’s gorgeous in this episode.
Every time I watched this episode, I stress about the fact that they probably blew about 60% of their whole budget on this one scene where all the aliens come through. Like, you have six or seven different aliens, that are all these gorgeous designs, and super distinct, super beautiful, but also like, you are on your second episode of your first season, please do not spend all your money.
Talia Franks: Okay, okay, wait. Backtrack. I wanted to talk about the fact that the Doctor’s gift is air from –
Lucia Kelly: Is the air from his lungs!
Talia Franks: And he’s breathing on people. He’s breathing on people. I watched that and I was, like, “Ahhhhhhhhhhh,”
Lucia Kelly: The Moxx of Balhoon spits on people! So I’d say the Doctor comes out ahead!
Talia Franks: Okay, so when I saw the Doctor breathing on people, I cringed, I curled up on myself, I was covering my face. I was “Noooooo!”. And then the Moxx of Balhoon spit on Rose, and I swear, I like – I could not. I actually, I think I let out a little shriek.
Lucia Kelly: The Moxx of Balhoon is dead, so he won’t be spitting on any more people.
Talia Franks: Cause I was watching it with my dad and he was like, “What’s wrong with you?” And I was like, “There’s a pandemic.” I think I was so upset, I didn’t even call it a panopoly. I used the word pandemic.
Lucia Kelly: (Lucia sighs) And also that that’s an okay gift? Like, I just want to know what the standard of gifts are, because Jabe seems to be the only one who got the memo. She’s like, “I’m giving you a little house plant. It’s very personal to me because it’s a cutting from my grandfather. This is from the heart, but it’s also something to decorate your home.”
And then the other gifts we see are: air from the lungs, not just general air, but air that has been breathed in and then breathed out again.
Talia Franks: The way that she shudders.
Lucia Kelly: She’s like “Oo. So intimate. Aaah”
Talia Franks: Yeah, it like, and it’s such a (Lucia shudders) weird way that creeps me out.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, and then we have: spit, and then we have secret spiders. We don’t see what the other gifts are. We assume there are more. So, like… (Lucia vocalises, at a loss) This is a high class event. Why are you spitting and breathing on people? Give people houseplants.
Talia Franks: Can we give the writing a one? No, that’s mean…
Lucia Kelly: Yeah!
Talia Franks: Let’s give it a two. Let’s give it a two.
Lucia Kelly: No, we’re giving it a one, because it really was. It really just was – No wait, you’re right, cause it also had great Doctor stuff.
Talia Franks: It had great Doctor stuff. I want to give it a two, just because of the line that I keep repeating, which is “You think it will last forever, people, and cars, and concrete.” And also I want to give the acting at least a four, if not a five, because of when Rose says “We were so busy saving ourselves. No one saw it go.”
Lucia Kelly: That moment. Oh my God. And the fact that, again, she could be talking about Gallifrey. The parallels between Earth and Gallifrey in this episode are so clear, and the way that – so the quote is, “The end of the Earth. It’s gone. We were too busy saving ourselves. No one saw it go. All those years, all that history, and no one was even looking.” And I’m just like – like I’m actually feeling myself tear up, as I read that out loud, thinking about how that would land on the Doctor, cause that’s how Gallifrey ended.
Everyone was in a war. Everyone was too busy saving themselves. The only person who even – like – Do you think the Doctor watched, as it burnt, or do you think he looked away?
Talia Franks: I think he couldn’t do it. I think he couldn’t –
Lucia Kelly: Because, (Lucia sighs) now I’m just thinking about the end of this season finale, where he has to pull that lever, and he and the Emperor Dalek have a conversation about cowardice and that’s a whole – that’s hours and hours away, but we will get there.
Talia Franks: We’ll get there.
Lucia Kelly: So, yeah, science, okay. Yeah. The scanner? The species scanner? I hate it with my whole entire being. I hate it. I think it’s the worst.
Talia Franks: But, I think overall the science isn’t that bad.
Lucia Kelly: It’s not just the fact that it’s a little – Okay, the scanner is wrong. I can put that… aside, I can take maybe just half a point off for that.
It’s the fact that – So, what is it? Is it an encyclopedia? Is it connected to a universal internet? What does it do? How does it work? (Talia laughs) Urgh! It makes no sense. And it also – so we know history from the Doctor’s perspective, but what do other people think happened?
Talia Franks: I have no idea.
Lucia Kelly: Because, like, so like, yeah. So what was in that scanner? What did Jabe read?
Talia Franks: I mean –
Lucia Kelly: What did it say?
Talia Franks: Well, I think she just knew about the Time War, so when she saw he was a Time Lord, she knew, cause when the Nestene Conciousness found out –
Lucia Kelly: Also, from that point of view, where they’re from… is 5 billion years past where the Time War ended, because we established that the Time War ended around 2005, like we know that the Nestene Consciousness was on Earth because all of its protein planets died. We’re later going to find out that the Gelt h also were affected by the Time War, and that’s why they’re coming through in the 1890s. Like, it happened in that time period. So, 5 billion years is a really long time. (Talia hmms in agreement)
What… (Lucia is overcome and vocalises her frustration) It makes me so mad.
Talia Franks: It’s – I mean, I’ve always got the feeling that the Time War raged across all of time and space, and so, everywhere was affected by it? But yeah.
Lucia Kelly: But then when would Gallifrey get destroyed? Because Gallifrey surely –
Talia Franks: Gallifrey gets destroyed everywhere.
(singing) It’s timey wimey. It doesn’t make sense.
Lucia Kelly: But also, the other thing that makes me angry about the science. This is what this section should be called. It should just be called “Lucia is angry about science.” (Lucia and Talia laugh)
Um, that’s not how light works. It’s not how radiation works. The whole sun filter thing and the radiation, and also – the fact that bloody, as soon as there’s a single crack in that observation deck, they should all be pulled out into the vacuum of space, any crack through – like – pretty sure space is a vacuum!
If you have one tiny hole in your spaceship, and there are no shields at that point, you’re all dead. Have fun!
Talia Franks: Rubrics should – shouldn’t there be an option for zero?
Lucia Kelly: There surely should. Let me put that in there right now.
Talia Franks: I think science should get a zero.
Lucia Kelly: You get zero points. Zero points for science this day.
So, Rewatchability. How rewatchable is this episode?
Talia Franks: Two.
Lucia Kelly: Two? Yeah. Cause I guess, it’s the same as the writing, right? Like, the brief Doctor moments in there are so good, they established character so well, they establish the world so well, it’s a really important episode in terms of – basically setting up the whole world and what this New Who is going to look like. Everything else about it? I can toss.
I also, while I do the math and figure out what this episode got, this episode continues with its establishment of Rose’s compassion and her ability to connect with people? It does a great job – and the next episode is also going to do a great job of unpacking Rose’s privilege and how she thinks about herself. But also, like as soon as she readjusts her framework to be like, “people include everyone”, right? As soon as she does that, she’s right back to the Rose we know in terms of like, she connects with Raffalo, she talks to her one-on-one, like an equal, she’s there making sure that everyone is okay, she wants to save Cassandra at the end. She asks the Doctor to help her.
Whenever I watch these early episodes of Who, I think about at the very end of the season four finale, where Ten talks to Rose, about how much she means to him and what she did, which (Lucia shudders) I have – there are complicated Rose/Ten feelings, but that moment, and their relationship, and what Rose means to the Doctor (Talia hmms in agreement) is so meaningful.
And we really see it in these early episodes, just how angry the Doctor is, just how hurt he is, how he’s lashing out, how he doesn’t – like, and there are problematic elements to this where it’s like “the man learns compassion from a woman”, like all that kind of bullshit, but, in terms of person to person, Doctor to Rose, the way that Rose is that support system for the Doctor and helps him by simply being herself. There’s no sit down. There’s no like, “Hey, you need to sort some things out because you’re not acting with compassion, and not acting with care for other people,” That her very presence helps the Doctor to heal (Talia hmms in agreement) is very emotional for me.
And that note, I will reveal, that “The End of the World” gets a C minus.
Gosh, it’s bad. It’s real bad.
Talia Franks: I’m sorry. It’s 2:00 AM.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. Everyone – everyone go on Twitter right now. I don’t care when you’re listening to this episode, find Talia’s Twitter and just tweet, “Go to bed, Talia,” cause I 100% guarantee, no matter when you text, it will be an appropriate and right notification. Our goal as a community is to get Talia on a proper sleep schedule. (Lucia and Talia laugh) That’s our goal is a community.
On the plus side, they did very well today, and did not talk about fan fiction, even a little bit. You have a full 10 minute timer, so well done.
Talia Franks: On that note, should I go to bed?
Lucia Kelly: Yes. Good night, everyone. Have a good time. We’ll see you soon. Go to bed Talia. (Talia yawns)
Talia Franks: In fact, I’m really just that tired.
Lucia Kelly: We only talked for an hour and 47 minutes that time.
Talia Franks: This has been the Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Podcast.
Lucia Kelly: We hope you enjoyed this adventure with us through space and time.
Talia Franks: If you’d like to find us elsewhere on the internet, we are on Twitter, Tumblr and Instagram as @WibblyPod.
Lucia Kelly: You can also find out more information about us and our content on wibblywobblytimeywimey.net, and full transcripts for episodes at wibblywobblytimeywimey.net/transcripts.
Talia Franks: If you’d like to get in touch, you can send us an email at firstname.lastname@example.org
Lucia Kelly: that’s all for now. Catch you in the vortex.