Talia Franks: Hello and welcome to the Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Podcast!

Lucia Kelly: I’m Lucia Kelly expert at applied analysis, and I’m the most stable person I know.

Talia Franks: Oh my God, the fact that the Doctor said that unironically,

Lucia Kelly: We’re both hanging by a thread Talia, give us our moment. (Talia and Lucia laugh)

Talia Franks: And I’m Talia Franks media critic, fanfic enthusiast, and scourge of scoundrels.

Lucia Kelly: Now that is accurate. (Lucia laughs)

Lucia Kelly: And we’re here today for a Wibbly Wobbly Minisode!

Talia Franks: The Vanquishers aired on December 5th, far future 2021. It was written by Chris Chibnall and directed by Azhur Saleem.

Lucia Kelly: Reminder that time isn’t a straight line. It can twist into any shape and as such, this is a fully spoiled podcast. We might bring things in from later in the show, the comics, the books, the audiodramas, or even fan theories and articles.

Talia Franks: With that out of the way, we’re all about disrupting the systems. So let’s get into the TARDIS.

(Transition wobbles)

Lucia Kelly: IMDB says that in this final epic chapter in the story of the Flux, all hope is lost. The forces of darkness are in control, but when the monsters have won, who can you count upon to save the universe?

Talia Franks: Our synopsis says that this is the one where the doctor gets real gay for herself and Dad is (Talia starts to laugh) Oh my God

Lucia Kelly: (Lucia speaks in a singsong voice) Dan dad supremacy

Talia Franks: Shut up. (Lucia laughs) And Dan is a bad wing man for Yaz.

Lucia Kelly: (Talia and Lucia begin to speak in low voices) He’s such a bad wing man for Yaz.

Talia Franks: Such a bad wing man for Yaz.

Lucia Kelly: Oh my God. (Begins in a normal tone of voice again) Okay, so let’s just Talia this episode way so gay. It was so gay!

Talia Franks: I will say, I will say that Dan does have like awkward dad on the TARDIS energy.

Lucia Kelly: Right?

Talia Franks: He’s he’s not a dad. But he feels

Lucia Kelly: He could have been, he could have been, if they’d brought Peggy along, by the way that storyline never got sorted, we still have no idea what Peggy’s doing (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Peggy’s It’s fine getting old in the early 1900s.

Lucia Kelly: I’m just saying she’s being raised by Vicar. She could have been raised by Jericho, Yaz, and Dan. I know the childhood would prefer.

Talia Franks: R.I.P Professor Eustatius Jericho, Scourge of Scoundrels.

Lucia Kelly: I hate to say that I saw it coming.

Talia Franks: I definitely also saw it coming.

Lucia Kelly: It was a really obvious sacrifice.

Talia Franks: Someone had to die and best it be the old white man, gotta say.

Lucia Kelly: I think. Okay. So full disclosure, listeners, Talia and I have very different reactions to this episode.

Talia Franks: I loved it.

Lucia Kelly: I am feeling pretty neutral towards it.

Talia Franks: I’ve seen a lot of people on Twitter also feeling like this episode is mediocre or bad.

Lucia Kelly: Well the main issue I have with it is not that it was bad, I think it was actually a really, really solid episode of Doctor Who. My problem with it is that it did not feel like a Finale. Like even with all of the like, scale. I didn’t feel like the actual, like emotional anchor or stakes were there. Do you know what I mean? It just felt like big set pieces. Especially that whole, Sontaran, Dalek, Cyberman thing, like they were there just to be there. There was nothing actually done with it. It was all this, I want to feel like the universe is in danger. And it never really did for me.

Talia Franks: Yeah. I did think it was a little convenient that the way that the Flux was solved was that the Flux got absorbed by the Passenger and then Time made everything right. Again.

Lucia Kelly: Right. Talk about a Deus Ex Machina. My goodness. And everyone was saying the whole time, like, how are they going to resolve all of these threads in one episode? Turns out they’re not going to. They’re not going to.

Talia Franks: I mean, I thought they resolved all the threads that needed resolving. What do you think was unresolved that needed to be resolved?

Lucia Kelly: Well, just the whole, I will say when I say I don’t necessarily mind that it wasn’t, that it was not all squished in together, but I can’t help feeling, even though I loved the scene where it happened, the Doctor giving custody of the f watch to the TARDIS and saying, I’m not going to look at it. I’ll save that for another day. Like I’m not ready.

Lucia Kelly: Like I’m not going to, still felt like a bit of a cop out, like the way I would’ve lost my mind, if the final shot was her opening, the fob watch. You know what I mean? There’s a way to do this. That is like exciting. (Lucia laughs and Talia makes doubtful noises)

Talia Franks: I didn’t think it would have been authentic though? It doesn’t feel, I don’t think based on the journey that the Doctor went on. It doesn’t make sense to me, for the Doctor to open the fob watch at the end of this episode.

Lucia Kelly: Hmm. No, I see that.

Talia Franks: That doesn’t seem like where the Doctor was heading.

Lucia Kelly: Hmm.

(Transition wobbles)

Lucia Kelly: I will say that last scene before Dan very rudely interrupted between the Doctor and Yaz, first of all, that was filmed like a romantic couple. That was a romantic disagreement being resolved with love, and care, and affection, and communication, and openness, and I adored it, and oh my God, Jodie Whittaker with that one tear, get out of here! Oh my God. Ah! But yeah, like that was the high point for me. Everything else, fell by the wayside a little bit.

Lucia Kelly: I adored Vinder and Di together. I thought they made fantastic duo, but even, Oh my God, like even the bloody Bel and Vinder storyline. Right? And the fact that the baby had no real story or plot relevance? Or even really like emotional relevance? Like we have that cute middle back and forth between Yaz and Vinder. Sorry. Did I say Yaz and Vinder Vinder? Bel and Vinder.

Lucia Kelly: I’m still holding out for that ship. I love Bel, but like, Yaz and Vinder had chemistry, but I adore the way that his eyes kept on Bel after that moment. But even then I’m feeling this emotional emptiness.

Talia Franks: I completely disagree. (Lucia laughs) I love the fact that Bel and Vinder were just two people romping about in space, like living their lives.

Talia Franks: I feel like that really. That really makes it a lot more that really makes it a lot more meaningful for me, for them to be just to like regular ordinary people who are like, because I feel like one thing that Doctor Who is often missing is ordinary people who are, extraordinary people. Like no one on Doctor Who is ordinary, but people who are just living out their lives, but aren’t from earth.

Talia Franks: I feel like this series of Flux by including Bell and Vinder really shows the expansiveness of the universe showing like, oh, there are people who live their lives and live expansive lives, but they’re just normal people. They’re people who live and fall in love and have babies and have have expansive love stories that span the galaxy and, go to the academy together and get their honeymoon interrupted.

Talia Franks: They’re just people who live their lives and don’t have anything particularly special about them, but they’re not from earth. Hmm. I feel like that’s something that Doctor Who is often missing is that everyone is almost always like from Earth. And there aren’t any people who are just people like Doctor Who is always just picking up and having companions from like Earth.

Talia Franks: And I feel that I think in Classic Who that wasn’t always the case. But Modern Who it’s always just some young woman that the Doctor picks up from the 21st century. And I really, really loved that that wasn’t the case here in that they were just a normal couple who and I really hope they come back because there was a lot of Easter eggs about things that went on with them.

Talia Franks: But yeah, I really loved their normalcy. I really loved that there wasn’t some bigger picture mystery about them that just showed two people living their lives. And, anyway I’m just vibing. I feel like people are big mad, but I don’t care.

Lucia Kelly: Um, I will say, like what I’m not advocating for, like, I’m not a Bel and Vinder Doctor parents truther here. I’m not saying like “that should have!” I’m saying that, what I’m having issue with is that a pregnancy within a story is often a bit of a Chekov’s gun. Like you expect something to happen with it, whether that’s the pregnancy goes wrong or the mother suddenly goes into labor, or there’s some kind of complication with the parentage or like whatever, like a pregnancy within a narrative is a plot device.

Lucia Kelly: And. To not do anything with it felt really weird to me. That’s all I’m saying. In regards to the alien companions thing. Yes, absolutely. I would absolutely adore if we see in the next coming series, more companions that are not from Earth, that was absolutely a, pillar of the old Who. And I would love to see that come back because I think it led to a much more interesting sort of story perspective that I think we could use now.

Talia Franks: I think that the pregnancy not being used as a plot device was fantastic. I think pregnancy is something that is just a natural part of life. And I loved the fact that nothing bad happened to Bel, nothing dramatic happened to Bel just because she was pregnant. I feel it’s just having her be there and it not being a big deal except for the fact that it was there. I thought that was really cool and I really liked it. I didn’t think it needed to be a big thing. I just loved, I loved seeing it and yes, I know pregnancy is usually used as a plot device, but it doesn’t need to be. It can just be, someone can just be pregnant without it having to be a big deal.

Talia Franks: People are pregnant all the time. It doesn’t have to be a plot device. It can just be, and that’s what I really love is that it just, it just is. Speaking of alien companions, being important and being just part of the narrative. I adored the fact that Karvanista, was the Doctor’s companion, that little moment between them, where he was like, you were everything to me and you just swanned in acting like we were nothing and you didn’t remember me.

Talia Franks: And that was heartbreaking.

Lucia Kelly: Also,

Talia Franks: I think also. Explains why he wanted to kill her so bad because he was like, fuck you.

Lucia Kelly: Mhmm. Oh yeah. Also, did you see how he paused after? Like he explained to doctor? I can’t explain first of all, yes, that little Jodie’s reaction again. Jodie masterclass, Jodie goddess. Like, give, we’re finally giving her material to work with delivery of like were you my companion? Had me heartbroken.

Lucia Kelly: But those little pause after like Karvanista explains like there’s a device in my head. If I explain anything to you, I will be dead in three seconds. When the Doctor, like in outrage, is like the Division did this to you? Karvanista does not answer her. He does not deny it. He does not confirm. And I have a theory, that maybe the Doctor put it in there.

Talia Franks: Yeah. I was also wondering, I was wondering whether he didn’t confirm that it was the Division because the Division prevented him from confirming it or, if that was like part of the thing that he couldn’t say who did it, or if it was that it wasn’t the Division, it was someone else. And I was like, if it’s not the Division, who did it?

Lucia Kelly: Yeah.

Lucia Kelly: Also the Karvanista stuff is also part of, why I felt like this episode did not have the stakes it needed. I’m sorry, the genocide of his entire people should have been a bigger deal like that should have had weight that should have had that should have. Driven the story, and definitely driven Karvanista’s character from that point on.

Lucia Kelly: And we just don’t get that weight. Like even the howl is pitiful, like that should come from your gut. That should come from your belly. We should hear the pain of like your entire loss there. And it felt like a dog that was upset that his dinner came late, like, I’m not feeling the anger.

Talia Franks: I mean, I felt that the pain and the loss was there, I felt it. I definitely felt that Karvanista was, I definitely felt that he was in pain and shock over it. I didn’t think it was trivialized in any way or that it wasn’t carried out or that it didn’t have weight. And any instances of him not having a full reaction? I just chalked up to the fact that he was a Division agent and he’s compartmentalizing his emotions and he hasn’t fully processed it yet. Cause how, how does one even fully conceptualize of the fact that their entire species is gone?

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, I don’t know, I feel like and I feel like also I should, I should, I should also put in a little subclause? I’m not sure quite what the right terminology is. I’m aware that I’m aware of the guy is in full prosthetics. Like it’s hard to convey that much emotion when your face is entirely covered in fur. What I would actually love to see if Karvanista, Bel and Vinder were like explored further. Like we followed them and their emotional journey, maybe in a Big Finish or a comic series. I think that could be super successful and very well received. And I just love to dig into that more.

Talia Franks: Yeah, I feel like there is so much potential for different Big Finish, comic series. Definitely fanfiction.

Talia Franks: Between the adventures of Yaz, Dan and Jericho in 1901 to 1905, because I’m sorry. They did not fit all of that traveling into 1904. Niq and Delia on Who Watch were right. They were definitely in 1905, by the end of, by the end of that little thing.

Lucia Kelly: I definitely want to see

Talia Franks: But

Lucia Kelly: them trying to like earn money in 1903 and nineteen oh

Lucia Kelly: like I want to see them actually trying to live in the culture and failing miserably. That’s what I want. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: I am. I’m so curious about how they made money for all those steam boat trips, because they were not cheap. Uh,

Lucia Kelly: They were not cheap. That was so expensive to do when you were traveling all over the world.

Lucia Kelly: What were you doing? Why, why was Yaz so good at disposing of bodies? (Talia laughs)

Talia Franks: My pet theory is that Jericho is like a professor. And Dan is a history nerd. Yaz is just super smart. They were definitely betting on shit. They knew their history, like they were like, Dan, Dan is a football fan. Like he knew he like I’m betting, I’m betting that he was betting on games.

Talia Franks: Like I’m betting. He knows his sports history. I don’t, I don’t know if they had football in the early 19 hundreds. I, I I’m pretty sure they probably did have some kind of sports. But yeah, I’m betting, Dan knows his sports history and they were betting on games, real big. Like I don’t know. I feel like the Doctor’s probably very good at heists. So Yaz is very good at heists because the Doctor never has money. The Doctor never has money wherever they go. And so Yaz I’m sure is very good at talking her way into situations. I also wouldn’t be surprised if the Doctor had given Yaz her own psychic paper.

Talia Franks: That’s also, my pet theory is that Yaz has been traveling with the Doctor long enough that the, like the Doctor was prepared enough to slip Yaz, that little hologram. I wouldn’t be surprised if like she was, she was, she was prepared for her and Yaz to be separated. Right? I wouldn’t be surprised if along with the hologram, she also slipped Yaz, the psychic paper, like she was.

Talia Franks: Like she was, What?

Lucia Kelly: Like a little travel kit? Like a little, keep yourself safe hun and we’ll see each other certain kind of business?

Talia Franks: Like she wouldn’t just slip her the hologram and not slip her some other supplies. Like I’m bet she slipped her, the hologram, some psychic paper. It’s not like that. She had time to make a whole hologram, she had time to make a little travel kit with some psychic paper. Like if she had time to record that whole thing, she also had time to make a little kit. If she had time to record the whole thing, like to save it, like she had time.

Lucia Kelly: I always thought of the psychic paper as a unique item, but maybe they are because it’s pretty, it’s pretty OP, like,

Talia Franks: I mean, if you look at the psychic paper, it’s a pad, like it’s a pad with multiple sheets of paper on it.

Lucia Kelly: Oh yeah. That’s that’s you could rip some off maybe?

Talia Franks: You could rip some off and I would not be surprised if the Doctor has more than one sheet of psychic paper, because the thing is other people know what psychic paper is.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah

Talia Franks: Other people in the universe have encountered psychic paper and have trained against it. That’s something that’s established in the past. So I wouldn’t be surprised if, like, psychic paper is something that is like produced and the Doctor has just stacks of it.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. That might be fair. It might not be a unique item, but it might be a rare and powerful item. Also. I will say the Doctor doesn’t have any money, but like they have constant free travel and board, which is pretty good, like.

Lucia Kelly: So a lot of the travel expenses are removed also in the Old Who it’s established that the TARDIS can make food. So they’ve also got that on lock, unless they want to explore the local delicacies, even though we haven’t really seen that in NuWho.

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Talia Franks: The other Big Finish that I really want is Bel and Vinder and, Karvanista, but also I want just Bel and Vinder, like their original adventures.

Lucia Kelly: Yes (Lucia hisses)

Talia Franks: I want Kate what she was up to. Because also the thing, I don’t know if you noticed it, but Kate says she’s the leader of the human resistance. So Osgood is probably leading the Zygon resistance. And that’s why I Osgood’s not in the episode. (Lucia laughs) That’s that’s what I saw someone on Twitter say anyway.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no, definitely. I think there’s a lot like. What I will say for this episode is that it leaves a lot of space, which I like. There’s a lot of space for a lot of expansion of story. So we’ve got a lot of jumping off points for Big Finish, comics, fic, like whatever takes your fancy, which is a good, which is a point towards it.

Talia Franks: Yeah, it just, it did not have enough Kate Stewart, like I said on Twitter, released the Kate cut! I want (Lucia laughs) Also the Grand Serpent got what was coming to him, strand him on that rock. Like

Lucia Kelly: I have a question. How long is he going to stay there though? Like they did not strip him of anything. Like he’s, I’m betting. He still has a communicator I’m betting he still has, like how permanent is that exile also, also, also that’s just leaving him to die of slow starvation? And also the Doctor is apparently super chill with the, I I get that they’re mortal enemies or whatever, but like, especially considering that genocide is such like a hot button topic, the fact that the Cybermen and the Daleks and the Sontarans and like whelp guess I’m sacrificing them to the Flux!

Talia Franks: Yeah, that that was something I had a bit of a question about. My main thought was that so I had, I had two thoughts. One was that the Flux had to be stopped somehow. Might as well use all of the. Like thing is the Sontarans were about to destroy the Daleks and the Cybermen anyway, like the Daleks and the Cybermen were about to be destroyed no matter what the Doctor did.

Talia Franks: And if the Doctor didn’t do anything, the the Sontarans would be able to basically rule the universe. So, first of all, the only group of people that the Doctor is actually doing anything to is the Sontarans because it’s the Sontarans who are killing the Daleks and Cybermen. Second of all, what she’s doing to the Sontarans is she stopping them from taking over the universe which.

Talia Franks: Yes, she’s committing genocide on the Sontarans, which does not feel like a very Doctor move. The way that I saw it was mostly. She was saying it’s the universe of the Sontarans and she was picking the universe, which feels like, it feels like a very Doctor thing to me, which is like the Doctor is the person who’s often having to make hard choices.

Talia Franks: And it’s like the Doctor is like, okay, I could let the whole universe be destroyed and let the Sontarans take over the universe. Or I could get rid of the Sontarans. Yeah?

Lucia Kelly: All I’m saying it felt very, it also very “for the greater good” to me, in a way that made me real uncomfortable. And I dunno, I feel like what bothers me about it is that.

Lucia Kelly: We’ve had the doctor deal with the fact that they’ve had with the like idea of committing mass genocide before. So much better, like immediately, and perhaps it’s just because we’ve watched it so recently, but like I’m immediately thinking of Parting of the Ways and like how deftly and beautifully it was done with Eccleston the Doctor.

Lucia Kelly: And the weight it had. Again, like I keep coming back to this idea of this episode lacked weight. And I’m not asking, I’m not asking for like grim dark. I’m not asking for us to wallow with the grief and the, like the like tragedy and the like, oh my gosh, the weight of the big decisions. I’m just asking for it felt almost like gleeful or glib at points where really, really shouldn’t have I feel like the tone was off for some really key elements and points that just left me feeling unsatisfied.

Talia Franks: Yeah I think… so a couple things. One is you have to consider that when the Doctor was making these decisions too, she was split into three parts and wasn’t like, didn’t have her whole shit together. So I don’t know that she was at like top form.

Talia Franks: Cause she was also like actively. Being tortured by Swarm and Azure at the same time. So she was

Lucia Kelly: But even

Talia Franks: so, okay, hold on, let me, let me finish. So, first of all, I feel like she was not her normal self, but second of all, even if she was her normal self, I feel like this Doctor is a lot colder than people give her credit for.

Talia Franks: Like this doctor, I feel like people often see this Doctor with, because she’s all like smiles and rainbows on the surface. They don’t notice that like at her core, this Doctor is a lot more. Like they, they often see this Doctor is very like pacifist. Doesn’t like looks for alternative solutions a lot of times, but like when that veneer breaks through, I feel like this Doctor like when the switch is flipped is a lot colder and more calculating and more willing to go a lot farther while bottling up her reaction to the consequences. Then a lot of other Doctors have been in the past. I’m thinking specifically of Kerblam, where, there’s. I know you haven’t seen Kerblam yet, but there’s a character who the Doctor is like capable of saving.

Talia Franks: There’s definitely a way in which this character doesn’t have to die, but the Doctor just straight up watches them die. Like just straight up, lets them be killed. And it’s like the coldest shit I’ve ever seen.

Talia Franks: Um. It’s I feel like this Doctor contains a sort of duality where it’s sorta like on the surface, this Doctor is a lot, a lot of sunshine and rainbows, but underneath this Doctor is a lot colder and more calculating. Then, then some of the other doctors who like are outwardly like that.

Lucia Kelly: My problem with that is that we’ve seen that, right? That’s something we’ve seen with Eleven. And that’s something that there was a lot of Tennantisms in Jodie’s acting this episode as well. Like I was seeing a lot of Ten surfacing and I think one of the issues that a criticism that I’ve seen of Jodie’s Doctor is that they don’t seem to have quite found her unique space. What I find really frustrating is that I can’t really think of things that make Jodie’s Doctor unique and Jodie’s Doctor like a strong character to grasp to literally the only thing that’s coming to mind right now. And again, I’m super aware, I’ve not seen the vast majority of her run, but like kind of the only thing that’s coming to mind is the fact that she asks the consent, but that’s it? So much of everything from her writing to her, the way that she acts is drawn so directly from previous Doctors, that it’s hard to see her. And obviously the Doctor is the same character throughout the whole thing, but And I think this is not just a problem with Jodie. I don’t think this is just a problem with Chibnall, but like kind of ever since Tennant, the Doctor’s kind of been the same. There was a lot more differentiation and different characterization in Old Who, between Doctors and I feel like that’s part of what’s been lost in the revival and it’s really coming to fruition with Jodie, like partially because she’s not being written to as an actor I feel like? Like one of the things that I find frustrating and I understand this is a bit of a tangent, but like Jodie’s humor is quite slow. What Jodie excels in is not the quick, jabs and gimmicks. She has a real talent in slow, quiet humor, but she’s not given the space to use that.

Lucia Kelly: I feel like they’re writing to a very specific version of the character rather than the actor that they hired to play the Doctor, and it’s frustrating.

Talia Franks: I don’t I don’t know that I agree. I definitely think that the Thirteenth doctor is distinct from the other doctors. She feels very, very different to me. And it’s not just that, like she asks for consent where other Doctors don’t. She, I think, well, one, I do think you’re right. That a lot of, since Tennant, the Doctors have been very similar. I think Ten and Eleven are the closest. They definitely feel very much like the same Doctor. Capaldi is definitely a divergence. And then I think a Whittaker is an even further divergence I think also, I think it’s really interesting.

Talia Franks: When we talk about the Doctors that we call them, Eccleston, Tennant, Smith, Capaldi, and then Jodie, like we use for all the, for all the male doctors, we use their last names, but then for Jodie Whittaker’s Doctor, we use her first name. It’s very interesting that with the first female doctor with the actor who plays her, we use her first name where for all the male actors who play the Doctor, we’ve used their last names. That’s just something to note. But I think the, but anyway, the Thirteenth Doctor does feel very different to me. And all of the Doctors, while similar do feel like different people, they feel like different incarnations.

Talia Franks: Like the way that they react to things, the situations that they’re put in the different like the different adventures that they’re put in. If you took the Sontaran Stratagem, or Vampires in Venice, or, I don’t know, like Time Heist, those are three episodes from different areas, like from different Doctors and you put Thirteenth Doctor in each of them. I can imagine the Thirteenth Doctor acting very differently in each of those episodes. And I can imagine the the Thirteenth Doctor approaching them very differently and how they would all I can imagine Like I can imagine each episode going very differently. And I can imagine the Doctor going about about it in a different way. And so if you take like a past Doctor’s episode and a past Doctor’s adventure and put a new Doctor into it, I can imagine how that different Doctor would go about it in a different way, and just be a completely different person in that story. And I guess that’s, I guess that’s one example of how I think that they’re distinct and would treat them differently. And I think how they would interact differently and

Lucia Kelly: By the way listeners, that was a fic prompt. We want them on our desks by next week.

Talia Franks: I actually, I actually might think about writing a, writing a fic where a different

Lucia Kelly: Honestly I’d love to read it. I’d love to see it because at the moment I’m not convinced and. First of all, I would a hundred percent agree with you.

Lucia Kelly: I think it’s very, very interesting that collectively we tend to refer to the Thirteenth doctor as Jodie’s Doctor, and I definitely want to watch myself going forward and refer to her as Whittaker. Yeah, I just, I guess it’s something to look for in the future. I’m really, really, sad that, that we only seem to be really getting in the stride of giving material that is worthy of her and that she can really bite into just as she’s leaving. That’s another issue that I’ve had with this sort of giving the Thirteenth doctor, this puppy dogs and roses outlook is that Jodie has such strength in deep drama, and she’s not given a lot of space to do that work consistently.

Lucia Kelly: And I dunno

Talia Franks: I also think it’s really unfortunate that this is going to be so many people’s favorite season. Because Chris Chibnall did such such important work and bringing in a more diverse group of writers and this is going, and this is the only season where he wrote almost all the episodes.

Talia Franks: Although I will note pay attention to the fact that the episode that was. According to like almost all the polls that I’ve seen, again on Twitter. The episode in like just the general popular opinion that I’ve seen, like listening to podcasts and stuff. One of the episodes that people loved the most is Village of the Angels, which is when it was co-written with Maxine Alderton.

Lucia Kelly: Maxine Alderton for showrunner, please, please, please, please. RTD, you’ve had your time.

Talia Franks: Two of the episodes that people adored in seasons 11 and 12, were Demons of the Punjab and Fugitive of the Judoon which were Vinay Patel. Rosa was Malorie Blackman. Haunting of Villa Diodati was again, Maxine Alderton. So like bringing in a diverse set of writers, like actually, works.

Lucia Kelly: There is studies on this or something. It’s almost like it’s scientifically proven that diversity always makes things better.

Talia Franks: So like RTD, just like bring, bring back some of these writers because they’re so great.

(Transition wobbles)

Lucia Kelly: I just want to get your opinion. What do you reckon, about that little hint, that a little smidgen of hope, for some Master action in the specials. I’m so ready.

Talia Franks: I’m so ready.

Talia Franks: I’m so ready. I’m so ready. I’m going to Gally and Sacha Dhawan is going to be there and I’m just fingers crossed that I get to like actually meet him and have a real proper conversation, not just on a panel.

Talia Franks: I’m really hopeful. I’ll be able to give him a Wibbly Wobbly sticker. By the way

Lucia Kelly: Yes!

Talia Franks: There is

Lucia Kelly: We have stickers now!

Talia Franks: I’m going to be a Gally. I’m going to be handing out stickers. I’ll get your

Lucia Kelly: They’re actually they’re really cool. They’re really, I just Talia was lovely and sent me also a whole bunch of them. I have them now, they’re delightful.

Lucia Kelly: I will be sticking them in many inappropriate places. (Talia laughs) I’m excited.

Talia Franks: Come find me at Gally. I’ll give you a free sticker until they run out. But I have like about a hundred of them. So get ’em while they last.

Lucia Kelly: I unfortunately will not be at Gally because. This world is a hell hole. And I I’m, I’m not doing that. I’m so sorry. Like, I’m not visiting any conventions across the ocean.

Talia Franks: Well,

Lucia Kelly: Cause

Talia Franks: the borders to Australia are like super tight. Oh my God. Like getting, getting your, getting, getting yours package pass customs took two weeks.

Lucia Kelly: You’d think with how tight and restricted they are, they’d be more efficient, but no.

Talia Franks: Yeah, no. But I will be at Gally. You should come find me say hi from a decent distance we’ll come close enough for me to give you a sticker and then we’ll back away. (Talia and Lucia laugh)

(Transition wobbles)

Talia Franks: So what do you, what do you think of this episode? I want to give it a fabulous, but I have a feeling that you don’t.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no, it’s, it’s a firm low funky for me. I’m sorry. It just did not deliver in the way that I hoped would. And I’m really sad, actually. There were some, like there were definitely high points.

Lucia Kelly: There were definitely things that I really super enjoyed. We didn’t even get to touch on once again Azure and Swarm, get the short end of the stick and we will not be discussing them. Uh, but, their whole scenes were very fascinating. I adored Azure’s comments on like faith and religion, very up my alley.

Lucia Kelly: And of course all of the gay shit was delightful, but yeah, no, it’s a firm low funky for me.

Talia Franks: Well, I mean, we’ll get the chance to discuss them next week because spoiler alert, we’re going to have a seventh Flux episode next week. We’re going to be talking about the series as a whole in a bonus episode, not a mini episode, although this episode has been so long, it’s not really mini episode

Lucia Kelly: two weeks in a row, woo!

Talia Franks: Anyway So, yeah, we’ll hopefully get to discuss the Ravagers next episode. And then the week after that we start season two with the Christmas Invasion!

Lucia Kelly: Y’all are not ready for our opinions on Christmas Invasion. I’m just saying. I’m just saying the I’m just saying the raw recording is two and a half hours long.

Talia Franks: Yeah. We’re gonna, we’re going to shorten it. We’re going to shorten it, We’re gonna do our best, We’ll do our best, but just so just so you know, y’all are not ready.

Lucia Kelly: We have many opinions,

Talia Franks: so many opinions. Yeah. And then season two, we’ll have will be interrupted with a little mini bonus episode when we talk about Eve of the Daleks. But yeah, so, Yeah. Also just a reminder.

Talia Franks: Our season two episodes were recorded like months ago. So we’re not

Lucia Kelly: many many months ago

Talia Franks: Many, many months ago, I think back in like June. Um, so we’re not going to be referencing, Flux at all. They are deep in the past. Season two has a bunch of fun guests. Not every episode, but we’re going to be talking to some fun guests featuring some people who are hosts of other podcasts that you may have heard of.

Talia Franks: Anyway yeah. So thank you for joining us on this mad Flux adventure. We’ll see you next week.

Lucia Kelly: See you soon.

Talia Franks: Toodaloo.

Lucia Kelly: Thank you for listening to the Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Podcast.

Talia Franks: We hope you enjoyed this adventure with us through space and time.

Lucia Kelly: You can find us elsewhere on the internet on Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram @WibblyPod. Follow us for more Wibbly Wobbly content.

Talia Franks: You can find out more information about us and our content on wibblywobblytimeywimey.net and full transcripts for episodes at wibblywobblytimeywimey.net/transcripts

Lucia Kelly: If you’d like to get in touch with us, you can send us email at wibblywobblytimeywimeypod@gmail.com.

Talia Franks: Please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and other platforms as it helps other people find us and our content.

Lucia Kelly: That’s all for now, catch you in the Time Vortex!