In today’s informal minisode Talia tries not to make Lucia too jealous as we discuss all things Gallifrey One, including lots of talk about Thasmin, the Sarah Jane Adventures, and Jo Martin as the Fugitive Doctor.
Lucia Kelly: Hello, and welcome to Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Podcast!
Talia Franks: I’m Talia Franks media critic, fanfic enthusiast, and Mandip Gill called me stylish?? (Talia squeals)
Lucia Kelly: And I’m Lucia Kelly, expert at applied analysis, and I’m stuck on the other side of the ocean and I’m very mad about it. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: And we’re here today for a Wibbly Wobbly minisode!
Lucia Kelly: Today we’ll be talking about Gallifrey One 32nd to Midnight.
Talia Franks: Because it made me think about too many things and I have to share them with Lucia.
Lucia Kelly: Gallifrey One 32nd to Midnight took place from Thursday the 17th of February, 2022 to Sunday, the 20th of February, 2022 in Los Angeles, California United States.
Talia Franks: Reminder that time isn’t a straight line. It can twist in any shape and as such, this is a fully spoiled podcast. We might bring things in from later in the show, the comics, the books audio dramas, even or even fan theories and articles.
Lucia Kelly: With that out of the way, apparently there are Muppet weeping angels. (Lucia laughs) So let’s get in the TARDIS.
Talia Franks: So this is going to be a very informal episode because I basically just want to talk to you about Gally. Cause I was so sorry, you weren’t there. (Talia laughs while saying um)
Lucia Kelly: I’m genuinely like I made the decision a while ago, not to go for various reasons, but like mainly, COVID.
Lucia Kelly: And since you guys, like I’ve been hearing so many wonderful stories and anecdotes and things that have been happening and I’m like, God, I wish I was there. I wish I had been there to just just be there and meet everyone and like connect with fans and just be able to, and also like on the off chance and the off chance we met someone who was listening to us, that would have been really fun.
Lucia Kelly: But yeah, no, I was stuck over here. On this side of the ocean with no content and no fun.
Talia Franks: I did swim in the Pacific Ocean though in Santa Monica, which means we have touched the same ocean.
Lucia Kelly: Awwww. Cute.
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Talia Franks: Um, but okay, hold on. I wanted to adjust my microphone so that you could be sure to hear me. When
Lucia Kelly: Alright
Talia Franks: I, as I said in the intro, I shrieked a little bit, not sure if you heard properly, but Mandip Gill, Yaz herself, called me stylish. (Talia squeaks)
Lucia Kelly: And you were! You sent me a photo and I hope you put that up on the Twitter as well.
Lucia Kelly: Talia was wearing the coolest, funkiest, like orange patterned jumpsuit I’ve ever seen.
Talia Franks: It was not actually a jumpsuit. It was high-waisted pants and a crop top with a matching jacket.
Lucia Kelly: Ooooo it was very funky.
Talia Franks: I did not post it on our Twitter. I posted it on my personal Instagram. I did not post it on our Twitter, but I can share it on our Twitter.
Talia Franks: But yeah, it was such a great time. I met Jo Martin. We want the same superpower. (Lucia and Talia laugh)
Lucia Kelly: Which is?
Talia Franks: Which is, we both want to be able to speak any language in the world in the universe. Be able to communicate with anyone anywhere because that’s not how translation works, but if we could communicate with. So it’s not how translation works. Like you can’t just speak one language and have it be like your native language in your brain and then speak and have everyone understand.
Talia Franks: That’s not how language works. That’s how the TARDIS transaction circuit works. That’s not how language works and that’s not actually how the Doctor is able to speak every language. The Doctor, understands every language and he’s able to then talk to people in their languages. That’s how he’s able to speak to cats.
Talia Franks: Anyway, but the point is I want to be able to speak every language and therefore be able to talk to every person in their language, on their terms and have us have full understanding and communication between us, because the thing is different languages make you think differently and understand differently.
Talia Franks: And so anyway, we had this there was this moment in the meet and greet with Jo Martin, where like I asked her what her superpower was going to be. She originally said invisibility, but then when she asked me what I wanted my superpower to be and I explained to her what I wanted it to be and why she was like, “that’s awesome. I also want that.”
Talia Franks: And so now we both want the same superpower and also I was cosplaying as her. And she really liked my cosplay. And Amanda-Rae, and then also someone who also does cosplay, and we all were dressed as Fugitive Doctor. Jo Martin really liked our cosplays, insisted on taking picture with us. And it was just really great because it was so great to meet her, but also it was great to know what it meant to her, because, she talks about it in her panel, that it’s just really meaningful to her to see, especially Black women, Black femmes cosplaying as her cosplaying as the Fugitive doctor because representation is so important and seeing that representation, not just onscreen, but like at conventions, like out in the world and seeing that impact has been really meaningful for her.
Talia Franks: And I just like really appreciate being part of that. And also, I just really appreciate her existing. Like I have an art print of her, like literally hanging over me right now because I love her so much. It was a bit of a spoiler for my roommate when they were watching, as we were watching, (Lucia laugh) because we were watching Prisoner of the Judoon and they’re like “there’s this person right up there that I like know is the Doctor.” So like they knew that Ruth was going to be the Doctor But yeah, it was just, so, it was just so amazing to get to meet her and get to have that experience. And just to like me, like everyone, all the cast I also met I also met Jonathan Watson who placed the Sontaran commanders.
Talia Franks: He doesn’t play all of them. There’s also oh gosh, who was the other person who plays the Sontarans? He’s great.
Talia Franks: Dan Starkey is the other person who plays the Sontarans. He wasn’t there. I love Dan Starkey’s Sontarans, but Jonathan Watson played the Sontarans in Flux and he’s so nice. He’s still friendly. He gave me a new appreciation for the Sontarans who, as you know, I don’t super well fondness for as, but Yeah.
Talia Franks: And he was talking about like how long it takes to do, make up for the Sontarans. Apparently you have to sit there for four hours. But it was just. Yeah, it’s just I was just so great to meet actors and see behind the scene stuff. Also full disclosure. I paid probably way too much money to go to meet and greets and drinks, receptions to get to meet actors.
Talia Franks: Like I met the Sarah Jane adventures, actors who were there, Tommy Knight Anjli Mohindra. They were both like fantastic Rani and um, Rani and Luke, for those of you who don’t know actor names, they were both,
Lucia Kelly: Did you just forget Luke’s name? Did you just forget Luke?
Talia Franks: I did not forget Luke.
Lucia Kelly: Luke!
Talia Franks: I did not forget Luke. I promise
Lucia Kelly: My heart is broken (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: Love Rani and Luke and we were talking about like how, like important it is. And one of the things that I was talking. Two. And they talked about this in the 17 adventurous panel, but also I went to one of the drinks receptions. So I got to talk to Anjli about this. Like one-on-one we were talking about how, I mean one-on-one there was like other people at the table, but we were talking about like the importance of the Sarah Jane Adventures and the importance of children’s television as just like being more groundbreaking and how, like Sarah Jane Adventures has gone places where mainstream Doctor Who like wasn’t able to go for even sooner, like Luke coming out on the show, it didn’t like fully happen until the Goodbye, Sarah Jane like I think was when it became explicit on the screen, but it was planned to happen the season that never got finished because Elisabeth Sladen died.
Talia Franks: That was going to happen back in 2011. Was it? And that was that would have been like major to have a main character out and have his, like sexuality and his like whole arc be a major part of the show. And not just, like, for all that people like talk about Captain Jack and how he’s like groundbreaking or whatever.
Talia Franks: He’s really just set, dressing (Lucia starts laughing) his, like his, I just mean like his sexuality and his like in his. He’s basically there as spectacle. Like he’s not, he doesn’t feel like a fully actualized character to me
Lucia Kelly: Definitely not on non-doctor who
Talia Franks: not in the way that Luke is yes there’s Torchwood but like Torchwood is its own mess of things.
Lucia Kelly: (Lucia laughs) Torchwood is a mess on unto itself.
Talia Franks: No.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no. I totally get what you mean. Captain Jack on Doctor Who is very much a God, what’s the word? It’s Like a spectacle character, he’s there to shake things up. He’s there to he’s basically there to be a firework display, right? Like,
Talia Franks: Mhmm
Lucia Kelly: you’re there, he’s meant to be looked at and be like, “oh my gosh, Captain Jack!” There’s a very little, actual characterization or depth
Talia Franks: Mhmm
Lucia Kelly: given to him
Talia Franks: Mhmm
Lucia Kelly: and yeah, no. I remember when Luke came out and it was like, like it, that happening was groundbreaking to me personally. And like I totally, like, of course they couldn’t continue with that story, but I would have loved to see it.
Talia Franks: Yeah. What when did that happen for you?
Lucia Kelly: It was 2011, so I was uh,
Talia Franks: Yeah, I don’t remember. Cause like it didn’t,
Talia Franks: Cause like it didn’t really happen in the show itself though.
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. But I do remember it’s a very vague, like I remember seeing the scene though. Like I remember him talking, I remember seeing the scene where Luke is talking about.
Talia Franks: No, cause it’s not like I re really just rewatched the Sarah Jane adventures. I don’t remember it.
Lucia Kelly: Was it a cut scene maybe? They definitely filmed it because I remember seeing it.
Talia Franks: Yeah. But like the, I don’t know, maybe I’m just, maybe I’m just. Not imagining things correctly, like I remember it being.
Lucia Kelly: “When Luke comes out” google help.
Talia Franks: Yeah. (The sounds of Lucia typing can be heard)
Lucia Kelly: I swear to God, I saw this scene. I swear. ’cause I remember being, mainly I was blown back cause I had a crush on him at the time and I was like, no, cause I did not yet realize many things.
Talia Franks: I think like the thing is like Luke wasn’t confirmed as gay until the special in 2020. I think there was like, I think there was scenes that were like filmed from those like scenes from those episodes that never got released. Like people told people were like, it was like announced that it was an arc that was supposed to happen.
Talia Franks: I think some of those cut scenes were like released and people were able to watch them unofficially
Lucia Kelly: Hmmm
Talia Franks: but like it wasn’t confirmed, like in the Canon of the show until the short, that was released in 2020.
Lucia Kelly: Were there any are there any comics or any other additional material released for the Sarah Jane Adventures? Continuing on the story?
Talia Franks: I don’t know. I haven’t, if there were, I haven’t read them.
Lucia Kelly: Interesting, because that would be. That would be the logical next step. In my opinion, like if I was in charge.
Lucia Kelly: Anyway, we are getting sidetracked. (Talia is typing for research)
Talia Franks: Yeah. There are apparently like some online comics that were released in connection to the Sarah Jane adventure. But there were no, but there was never anything printed. There was never anything released in print.
Lucia Kelly: Interesting
Talia Franks: We are getting very off track.
Talia Franks: But yeah, it was just really great. It was also really great to, see some of our, some of our friends who we know from Black Girls Create, Who For Us By Us. Like it was just really it was just really great to get to meet some of those people, get to meet other people that I’ve just known online.
Talia Franks: And it was, yeah, I got to speak on the Whovian Creators of Color panel. And that was pretty terrifying, but pretty fun. Like it was a good experience.
Talia Franks: There were, and Nicole, Black TARDIS talks about this, in their podcast, it’s on their Patreon, but it is available to everyone where they talk about some of the, they talk well one, they talk about how they talk about Gally in general and Gally was really well done overall especially their dedication to COVID safety.
Talia Franks: Like everyone was vaccinated mandatorily. There was onsite COVID testing, like mandatory masks. And people were really like on it in terms of making sure that people like stuck to wearing their masks. Like we were allowed to eat obviously, but anytime someone like wandered outside of the eating areas, it was people were wearing masks and.
Talia Franks: If there was anyone who like forgot, they were, all they had to do was be reminded. You’d be like, oh my goodness, sorry. I forgot my mask. Like it was very it was very it was just a very chill convention. For the most part there were (Talia sighs) A few issues and Nicole does talk about them regarding moderation with regard to some of the panels.
Talia Franks: And I’m not gonna go into it too much, cause I don’t want to just repeat everything that they said. But there were definitely moments where I feel like, especially in the bigger panels the audience and especially the guests would have benefited from some more thorough moderation in terms of how people were asking questions and what questions people were asking. Just because this particular moment where someone was entirely out of line. And I really don’t want to get into it, but again, go listen to Nicole’s podcast.
Talia Franks: They’ll tell you all about it, get into it. But yeah, so it’s just the thing is that there’s a lot of times where, moderation is needed to keep the flow of a panel. And just to make sure that people aren’t taking up too much time asking questions, but also to make sure that the questions they’re asking are appropriate, that they aren’t Like appropriate as in relevant as in, but they’re actually questions, not comments and that they are.
Talia Franks: And that they’re just like, not offensive to the people that they’re asking.
Lucia Kelly: Mhmmm
Talia Franks: Um And
Lucia Kelly: Yep
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Lucia Kelly: Good. Mo good moderation is a very under appreciated and often invisible sign of a good panel Mhmm and a good convention overall, please respect. And thank your moderate. Like if you, if you’re at a convention, take the time to thank moderators because they do so much work to make sure that you guys are having a good experience and it really is.
Lucia Kelly: Most of the time, pretty thankless work and it’s really important.
Talia Franks: Yeah.
Talia Franks: Yeah, and I guess one of the only other things I wanted to talk about before we wrap up is of course Thasmin. (Talia giggles) Because there were several panels in which Thasmin came up. And Mandip Gill herself said Thasmin is Canon now. But one of the things that she did say, and I did again perhaps shelled out a few, too many coins to go to Mandip Gill’s meet and greet and while we were there she one of the things that she said was that.
Talia Franks: As far as, as far as far as she knew, and like, she knows pretty well, she was playing. Yaz. Like Thasmin isn’t something that was planned from the start. But is something that like ended up growing pretty naturally out of her and Jodie Whittaker’s chemistry and especially because she, and she and Jodie actually had become such good friends and had so much chemistry that they had to tone it down in series 12 because Yaz and the Doctor weren’t supposed to be as close as Mandip and Jodie were.
Lucia Kelly: That’s a bit adorable. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: And I think it just speaks to, you know, the closeness of their friendship which is honestly really beautiful. And I think, there are definitely like (Talia sighs)
Talia Franks: I really. I just really loved, especially the energy and the real love with which everyone who like all the actors there, spoke of Jodie with. like Jodie, Jodie Whittaker is Doctor is one of my favorite doctors in the entire run of Doctor Who like her and Peter Capaldi are my two My two doctors like those two, are my doctors.
Talia Franks: I think that, especially because of the care with which and the love with which everyone speaks of her really really just, uh, makes me want to meet her and makes you wish that like she had been here and that I could go to a convention where she actually is. That would be amazing. (Transition wobblese)
Talia Franks: I did not actually get to get any autographs or pictures with Sacha Dhawan but I did get to go to a drinks reception where he was and oh my God, he is just as charismatic like offscreen as he is onscreen. Like literally he does that little smile at you and you feel like you’re going to melt on the inside. (Lucia laughs) Like, And it’s just it’s scary. It’s scary honestly, like that level of charisma is it feels dangerous.
Lucia Kelly: Thank goodness it’s in good hands. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: Perfect casting for The Master. Oh, my goodness. Shivers down my spine, honestly,
Lucia Kelly: Chibnall write another Master storyline 2023. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: Like, but like from what people where I was picking up what some people were putting down, I don’t think we’ve seen the last of the Master.
Lucia Kelly: Mhmm, no way. He’s too good,
Talia Franks: No way, he’s way too good.
Talia Franks: But. Sorry. I lied, a couple more things before we go.
Talia Franks: I do not understand where some people are coming from with some of their energy.
Lucia Kelly: Isn’t that always the way? (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: I have a few points of grievance. First of all, now I’m not naming names because I literally do not know who said this. Like I’ve never, I did not even see the face of the person who said this.
Talia Franks: There is someone at Gally who said that they thought that Yaz and the Doctor had a mother-daughter relationship. And I just, I don’t understand the like need for so many people to see Yaz and the Doctor as anything other, to see their stories, anything other than a love story, anything other than even if you don’t want to call it like a romantic love story, anything other than I just, I don’t understand why people have so much energy for ships, like Tenrose and and exert so much energy towards like saying that Thasmin isn’t a thing. There’s so much it it makes me so like and the thing is, I do understand it’s but I don’t want to, because I don’t want to be like accusing all of these people of queer phobia, because then they’ll just get angry at me and say that they’re not, (Lucia lets out a burst of laughter) but I’m like the, the thing is, is like
Talia Franks: I feel like people in general need to examine their biases and like really grapple with themselves and think “why is it that I am okay with the Doctor, romancing people and having relationships until it’s a relationship between two women?”
Lucia Kelly: Mhmm Mhmm Denial is a hell of a drug. And I’m talking about that, like both, both in relation to Thasmin and in relation to Tenrose,
Talia Franks: Yeah
Lucia Kelly: I think there’s a lot of denial going around.
Talia Franks: Yeah. And then my question is for people who do say, “oh, I don’t like Thasmin or Tenrose,” I’m like, Okay, but why is the energy coming on so strong when it’s all of a sudden, a queer couple. Like, why, like, where was this energy? The thing is, it’s not like for me, it’s not that I don’t have issues with Chibnall.
Talia Franks: It’s not that I don’t have issues with the Doctor romancing a companion yet again. My issue is, where was this energy before? Where was this energy?
Lucia Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, no. I mean, the listeners know, The listeners know we’re not quiet about keeping the Doctor accountable of all the many things they do that is very wrong, but like, I think there’s a huge, there’s a massive difference.
Lucia Kelly: Between, I think there’s a massive difference between Ten and Rose, and the very particular relationship that they had and the relationship and the very particular relationship that the Doctor and Yasmin have. Very different power dynamics, still power dynamics at play, and still with the Doctor in a position of power above the companion in a way that can very much be manipulated and abused, but also completely different power dynamics
Talia Franks: Mhmm
Lucia Kelly: and that’s important to acknowledge.
Talia Franks: Mhmm
Talia Franks: Yeah, I think it’s important to acknowledge the difference in those power dynamics. And I think it’s important to, again, acknowledge the way that different kinds of internal biases. Will see these relationships differently based on the people portraying them.
Talia Franks: Sorry, one last thing before we go, this isn’t strictly Gally related.
Talia Franks: It’s tangental to Gally, but one of the things that happened recently is Twitter going all up into a fuss over whether or not the Fugitive Doctor is a major character. Because, and
Lucia Kelly: The answer is yes. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: The answer is yes
Talia Franks: because the first place I saw it, which I presume is the origin, but there might’ve been there might’ve been other. Pockets of places where it was an origin. But the place where it started for me and where I noticed it first and this is also a recurring thing is that Nicole had posted a tweet about the panel that Sacha, Mandip and Jo did.
Talia Franks: And it was about how there was three major actors, major characters having an interview and they were all POC. And then there was people commenting about like major, hardly current, hardly because the era was supposedly over. But the era NOT over! Jodie Whittaker is still the Doctor. The 14 doctor hasn’t even been announced yet, unless it somehow gets announced between when we’re recording this and when we release it.
Talia Franks: But Jodie Whittaker is still the Doctor. She still has two more specials to go out.
Talia Franks: She has not regenerated. The 14th doctor has not been announced like officially Chris Chibnall is still like the show runner until he hands the Russell T Davies until until Jodie Whittaker like regenerates, like actually that may already been handed over. But like for the most part, he’s still on all the titles of the upcoming episodes.
Talia Franks: I just, it is mind boggling to me that people are still trying to like discredit. And like
Lucia Kelly: Listen until, Until the Timeless Child arc is officially wrapped up properly. I’m not talking about Flux here, I’m talking about properly. Until that arc is wrapped up. The Fugitive doctor is still a major player because that’s what the entire that’s how the story’s been constructed.
Lucia Kelly: So yes, Jodie Whittaker is the Doctor right now. Yes, Jo Martin is the Fugitive doctor right now. They are both major players.
Talia Franks: Yeah. And the thing that is insidious about what people have been arguing is that they’re saying that they don’t dislike the Fugitive Doctor, but that she’s not major because she hasn’t had a lot of screen time.
Talia Franks: And because she hasn’t been fully developed in that’s why she’s not a major character. And I just, and I don’t understand why, like, Why people are constantly saying why people are trying to D sorry, I’m so frustrated. I don’t, I do understand, but I wish I didn’t understand why people are so consistently, doubling down on de-legitimizing a Black character,
Lucia Kelly: You know, if the Fugitive Doctor was a white man we would not be having these issues.
Talia Franks: I know and also we definitely haven’t even seen the last of her. She’s definitely, like. she’s
Lucia Kelly: That arc is 100% still going, it’s not finished!
Talia Franks: The era is 110% still going. It’s not finished. Jodie Whittaker still has two more specials. And if Jo Martin and Sacha Dhawan, don’t show up in Jodie Whittaker’s final episode, I will be shocked. I will be aghast.
Talia Franks: Like I will be so shooketh.
Lucia Kelly: If Jo Martin and Sacha Dhawan did not have a Doctor-Master face off, I will be specifically and personally disappointed and writing several angry letters. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: Cause it’s and honestly, people are always, and I say people, but there are so many people I’ve noticed who take so much issue, with Chris Chibnall’s writing. And like it’s so much ” oh, Jodie Whittaker is such a great doctor. Shame about the writing.” Listen, people, Chris Chibnall is not a bad writer. This era has not been a bad era.
Talia Franks: There have been lots of good stories in this era. There have been fantastic arcs for the characters. Like I keep saying. I will die on the hill that Ryan had one of the best arcs of a companion in the show full stop. And
Talia Franks: (Talia sighs) I just,
Talia Franks: I’m so mad that
Lucia Kelly: I can tell. (Lucia laughs)
Talia Franks: This has just turned into me ranting,
Talia Franks: But we need to wrap this up. So
Lucia Kelly: Is there anything else you would like to tell me about Gally before I burst with jealousy?
Talia Franks: Jo Martin sounds like a fantastic cook and I want to invite her over to my house to. (Lucia laughs) So that we can cook together.
Lucia Kelly: I’ll tell you what, we’ll set up an interview. We’ll have a chat and then we’ll go and have dinner together.
Talia Franks: Honestly, I like, it feels weird to be like, I want to invite an actor over to my house because I want her to cook, but no. I wanna invite an actor over so that she can teach me some of her recipes because they sound so good. (Talia whispers reverently and then giggles)
Talia Franks: She knows a lot of really good vegetarian recipes. Okay. Just saying. Anyway.
Lucia Kelly: All right. Thank you for telling me about Gally. I hope that everyone else really enjoyed hearing about it too. It sounded delightful. Thank you for listening to this episode. And you will see us next time. Hopefully I believe for the girl and the fireplace, which we have some very interesting discussions about.
Lucia Kelly: Until next time. Buh-bye!
Talia Franks: Bye!
Lucia Kelly: This has been the Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Podcast.
Talia Franks: We hope you enjoyed this adventure with us through space and time.
Lucia Kelly: If you’d like to get in touch, you can send us an email at firstname.lastname@example.org.
Talia Franks: Please rate and review us on apple podcasts and other platforms as it helps other people find us and our content.
Lucia Kelly: Special thanks to our editor, Dee, who has been a vital member of the Wibbly Wobbly team.
Talia Franks: That’s all for now. Catch you in the time vortex!