Transcript for 2.11 Army of Ghosts and Doomsday (S02E12 & S02E13)

Lucia Kelly: Hello and welcome to the Wibbly Wobbly Wimey Podcast!

Talia Franks: I’m Talia Franks, media critic, fan fic enthusiast, and I exist outside the whole of creation.

Lucia Kelly: And I’m Lucia Kelly, expert at applied analysis, and I’ve worked in shops, what’s wrong with that?

Talia Franks: And here today to talk about Army of Ghosts and Doomsday, the 12th and 13th episodes of Series Two of Doctor Who. Oh, (Talia makes a sad sound) that’s the last time I’m gonna get to say that.

Lucia Kelly: I know, but just think, it’s also the last time — pretty much — that we’re gonna have to talk about Rose. Silver lining. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Yeah.

Lucia Kelly: Army of Ghosts and Doomsday aired on the 1st and 8th of July, 2006, respectively. They were written by Russell T Davies and directed by Graham Harper.

Talia Franks: Reminder that time isn’t a straight line. It can twist into any shape, and as such, this is a fully spoiled podcast. We might bring things in from later in the show, the comics, the books, the audio dramas, or even fan theories and articles.

Lucia Kelly: With that out of the way, travel between parallel worlds is impossible, so let’s get in the TARDIS.

(Transition wobbles)

Talia Franks: I really hate how The Doctor was constantly saying this episode. “That’s impossible!” “You can’t have that!” What the hell?! The Doctor is so paternalistic in this episode. It is so frustrating.

Lucia Kelly: The way that both The Doctor and Pete are framed specifically as like, the men that the Tyler women are “meant to be with” and also are framed as “knowing what’s best for them”? I hate it. I hate it.

Talia Franks: I hate it so much.

Lucia Kelly: It’s the worst.

Talia Franks: It’s so frustrating how The Doctor is making so many decisions for Rose, but also — so he makes the decision for Rose that he sends her to the parallel universe, but he also brings two clamps —

Lucia Kelly: Right?!

Talia Franks: — So he knows that she’s gonna be there or he expects her to be there. He knows that she’s gonna come back.

Talia Franks: So what was even the point?

Lucia Kelly: I think the point was that, for the story to work, (Lucia starts laughing) you need to have two clamps.

Lucia Kelly: So, he needed to bring them.

Talia Franks: But, so, for me, the way I read it was that he brought the two clamps expecting Rose to stay, but he sent Rose away so that Jackie would leave?

Lucia Kelly: Oh! That’s brutal. That’s brutal! But par for the course, right? We can’t have Jackie in an episode without completely bashing her and making fun of her. Just wall-to-wall Jackie bashing.

Talia Franks: But I just — I don’t … fully understand it. Just put the clamps next to the levers. You did not need to put them that far away. And also, Pete showing up at the last second? Like, how did he know to show up just then? Like, why did I just —

Lucia Kelly: It’s such a Deus Ex Machina.

Talia Franks: It’s so —

Lucia Kelly: I’m not mad at it, but —

Talia Franks: Also, The Doctor showing up in her dream? (Talia shudders)

Lucia Kelly: Listen, I am so curious to see how this ep — like, this episode of our podcast, is going to be received, because I know that Doomsday is held up as this, like, romantic ideal, right? We haven’t been shy about how we feel about Rose and Rose/Ten, so anyone who’s still here agrees with us, I would think, possibly, or you’ve got an incredibly strong constitution, but like —

Talia Franks: Yeah. Or you’ve just dropped in for just this episode and you’re about to be hit with a doozy because (Talia laughs and Lucia sighs in frustration) we are not fans.

Lucia Kelly: No! I hate how romance and love, how love, just in all its forms, is framed in this episode.

Lucia Kelly: It’s so possessive and it’s so like — we talk about consent, and we talk about agency as well. The way that nobody in this episode trusts Rose to have her own agency and to make her own decisions and is constantly judging her from all sides.

Talia Franks: It’s disgusting.

Lucia Kelly: It’s disgusting! You know, I’m a huge Jackie fan.

Lucia Kelly: The monologue that she has, where she’s talking about, how like, there’ll be this woman, 50 years in the future, but you won’t be Rose Tyler? Like —

Talia Franks: What the fuck?

Lucia Kelly: What the fuck? If my mother said that to me I wouldn’t even know how to react! That’s so that is so utterly hurtful and destructive to say!

Talia Franks: That’s — (Talia sighs in frustration) I can’t even with that. Why would you say something like that? Why?

Lucia Kelly: And then, what really upsets me, is that literally everything else about Alternate Universe Pete, I adore. He’s such a good character. I love how he keeps The Doctor accountable. I love how clear he is about, you know, the rules he has about interacting with different universes, in terms of like, “She’s not my daughter. She’s not my wife.”

Lucia Kelly: He’s so levelheaded and knows exactly what he wants and gets it. He’s such a strong character, in the literal construction of his character, like the character is strong, and then there’s this awful possessive element. And it reminded me, like, I want to root for Pete and Jackie so bad, but (Lucia starts laughing) we have literally never seen any version of them that is functional and healthy.

Talia Franks: We really aren’t.

Lucia Kelly: They have never been functional or healthy in any of their iterations in any of their, like, never, not once. I want it for them! I want them to be happy so bad, but you know it’s not true.

Talia Franks: The only way I can rationalize it is that this Pete from the Alternate Universe and this Jackie from like, the Main Universe, were incompatible with their Pete and Jackie, but are compatible with each other.

Lucia Kelly: But like, once you have that sweet moment with — also fuck The Doctor and Mickey for side eyeing Jackie when she’s like, “There was never anyone else,” like, yeah, Jackie’s had a full and fruitful sex life after Pete.

Lucia Kelly: That doesn’t mean she was in love with any of her partners or that she didn’t consider Pete her true love. Both can exist. Stop slut shaming Jackie!

Talia Franks: I know, right? Did they really expect that she would be celibate for 20 years?

Lucia Kelly: Like, sorry, I didn’t wear black and like, isolate myself from the rest of society because my husband died like, oh my God.

Lucia Kelly: Anyway, but like after they have that sweet little reunion moment or like, meeting moment, I guess, like, hell of a meet cute, as soon as that’s over, they go right back to being so dysfunctional. Like, it’s never going to work. I’m so upset.

Talia Franks: Okay, but then she immediately gets pregnant, and they have another kid?

Talia Franks: Although, actually — Okay, this leads me to another moment I wanted to talk about. On the beach (Lucia mhmms) when Ten, asks if Rose is pregnant, the way that he asks makes me wonder if he’s wondering if it’s his baby? (Talia half-giggles)

Talia Franks: I don’t know. The way he asks, something about it makes me wonder.

Lucia Kelly: We’d know if they banged. (Talia laughs) We’d know. They would make that, we — It’s a kids’ show, it’s a kids’ show, but like, they’d make it textual. We’d know.

Talia Franks: Are you sure?

Lucia Kelly: Yes.

Talia Franks: Okay.

Lucia Kelly: Are you kidding me? They would absolutely have made Tenrose officially canon. They would absolutely have done that.

Talia Franks: I don’t know.

Lucia Kelly: All the fanfics in the world won’t change the fact that Ten and Rose are explicitly written in the text as like “too bad. It never happened.” Like “we loved each other, but it never worked out.”

Lucia Kelly: They are explicitly written as a tragic, will they/ won’t they, they never did, couple.

Talia Franks: Okay. You can have sex never having said, I love you. I’m just saying.

Lucia Kelly: In the real world. Yes. Not with this kind of story.

Talia Franks: Okay. (Talia acquiesces and Lucia laughs)

Lucia Kelly: If they had had sex Rose would 100% be like, “So I’m your wife now.”

Lucia Kelly: That’s 100% how it would’ve gone. (Talia sighs dispassionately)

Talia Franks: Okay.

Lucia Kelly: It was never gonna be his baby.

(Transition wobbles)

Lucia Kelly: Rose. Rose, Rose. The drama. The like — (Lucia bursts into laughter) “This is story of how I died.” No it isn’t! You never died! (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Also who was she talking to?

Lucia Kelly: Right? You set up this framing device, and there’s no … frame? There’s no audience — like there’s us, the audience, but there’s — who is she talking to?

Lucia Kelly: Is this just Rose’s head? Is this just what it’s been the whole time and this is the first time that we see in — is Rose, just constantly narrating to herself? (Lucia trails off into laughter)

Talia Franks: This is reminding me of Season Six and how it always started with Amy’s narration.

Lucia Kelly: Oh God.

Talia Franks: And it’s also making me think about how so many people in future seasons are like, “Oh, I hate that Moffat did this.”

Talia Franks: Or like, “Oh, I hate that Chibnall did this.” And it’s like, ” these are seeds planted by RTD. (Talia and Lucia laugh)

Talia Franks: Even how later the whole thing with the Cybermen and what happens with Bill, and Danny, and Black people and Cybermen and all that horrible, traumatic stuff that I hate is actually seeded by RTD in Torchwood with Ianto’s girlfriend. Like, it all starts with RTD!

Talia Franks: All this problematic stuff is seeded in RTD’s run. We can talk about all this stuff that we dislike in Moffat, all this stuff that we dislike in Chibnall, but a lot of it was seeded by RTD. That’s part of why I’m worried about him coming back, honestly.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah.

(Transition wobbles)

Lucia Kelly: So let’s talk about Torchwood. Okay. Yvonne. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Imperial vibes. Because it’s not even subtext. It’s text. British Empire. Imperial tons.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. It was started by Queen Victoria. So like, that’s consistent, at least. They clearly haven’t updated the manifesto, like — (Lucia giggles) they’ve still got the same document from — that Queen Victoria penned herself, like “This is the main objective of this organization. British empire. And also, fuck The Doctor.” (Lucia laughs) “If the Doc ever turns up, kick his arse. Hard.”

Talia Franks: And I love Jackie’s reactions to it. I love how Jackie grounds the entire scene. Like, Camille Coduri, her reactions, all her facial expressions, everything she does in that scene grounds it completely. And I would just love to see Jackie as a companion.

Lucia Kelly: Do you know what I reckon it is?

Lucia Kelly: They realized too late that Jackie would’ve been a phenomenal companion. So they wrote Donna. (Talia laughs)

Lucia Kelly: Donna’s just Jackie in a different skin.

Talia Franks: Honestly, Donna and Jackie really are so similar and I’m so excited for when we get to “The Runway Bride” and we can talk about Donna ’cause she’s so great.

Lucia Kelly: And also, we get to talk about Freema and Martha, because guess who turned up?

Talia Franks: Yeah, Martha’s cousin, Adeola is here! (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: I love how they, like, explain things away like this.

Lucia Kelly: I know, right? It’s like, “Oh, we actually want her back.”

Talia Franks: yeah, “we want her back. Soooooo, she had a cousin!” and also this thing — I know people talk about how like, oh, people don’t actually look like their cousins that much. No, my mom looked so similar to her cousins, who are twins, that one time my mom was like, walking around town with her cousins who were visiting when she was like in, I don’t know, like, some, like, high school, whatever. And one of her teachers ran into her and was like, “Oh, I didn’t know you were a triplet.” (Talia and Lucia wheeze laughter)

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no, like — Also, that’s the thing you’re choosing to focus on? That’s the thing you’re choosing to nitpick? (Talia laughs) In the whole of Doctor Who? Martha’s cousin? Priorities, man.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. The in-work chat.

Talia Franks: Oh my God.

Lucia Kelly: It’s so painfully 2005, 2006.

Lucia Kelly: Also. “You wanna see something great.” like — RTD. Come on. A little bit of effort, please.

Talia Franks: (Talia makes a noise of distress) No.

Lucia Kelly: Also there’s no way that Matt didn’t think that was gonna turn into a threesome. (Talia laughs) He’s like, “you wanna see something great?” Wink wink wink wink wink.

(Transition wobbles)

Lucia Kelly: Do you think the Cybermen were revealed too early?

Talia Franks: Well, the Cybermen were revealed in the episode preview.

Lucia Kelly: But not everyone watches the preview. In the actual episode itself.

Talia Franks: Actually, what I really appreciated, going back to the preview, is that the preview revealed the Cybermen, it revealed the “I’m gonna die” arc, It didn’t reveal that Mickey and Pete were gonna come back. It didn’t reveal anything about the Daleks. The Daleks would’ve been a complete surprise to anyone who was only seeing the preview for the first time.

Talia Franks: What I liked about it is that the preview gave the impression that it was telling you everything that was gonna happen when really it left so much out.

Lucia Kelly: Hmm. And I do appreciate the fact that they actually keep that consistent. The “new Cybermen” design — is the parallel universe Cybermen — like, always — that is their origin. Which makes it so cool on a story level and on a history of the whole show level when they bring back the in-universe Cybermen.

Talia Franks: Yeah.

Talia Franks: One thing I do also like, about the Cybermen and the Daleks, is that whole little interaction. Oh my God. The Daleks and the Cybermen and their little, petty argument where they’re like, where they’re like —

Lucia Kelly: It’s so funny.

Talia Franks: It’s so hilarious. And they’re like, “This is not war. This is pest control.” Like, “We would defeat 5 million Cybermen with one Dalek.”

Lucia Kelly: “Daleks have no concept of elegance.” “That is obvious.” (Lucia ans Talia laugh) It’s all so good.

Talia Franks: Yeah.

(Transition wobbles)

Talia Franks: Okay, so this is another example of where I adore this version of Rose. This is yet another Rose, but when she’s talking to the Daleks and she’s like, “Yeah, I killed your Emperor.” “This is gonna be my last words. I killed him. It was me.”

Talia Franks: Like, “Just so you know, I’m that bitch. If this is gonna be my last words, I want you to know, I’m the one who killed your homeboy.”

Lucia Kelly: Yeah.

Talia Franks: This is the Rose that I love. And this is the Rose that I feel like is the reason why people love Rose.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah.

Talia Franks: ” I’m that bitch.” This is the Rose that you wanna see in the world.

Lucia Kelly: Be the Rose you wanna see in world. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: And then it just turns right around because they’re not giving her the autonomy she deserves. They’re not giving her the space to be that great person who has that potential. She just ends up shrinking back in on herself as soon as The Doctor is back.

Lucia Kelly: And this is what — I think I said this on “Rose,” on our very first episode, it is so frustrating that you have this like, kernel, this tiny element, that so rarely gets a voice of like, the real Rose, but they make her relationship to The Doctor, so overwhelmingly present and turn her into this whiny clingy teenager?

Lucia Kelly: And that becomes her overwhelming character trait, right? Is that she can’t think of herself as separate from The Doctor. Like, that is what Jackie should be bringing up in the TARDIS. Which I think is what she’s aiming at, when she’s talking about how, like “you even look like him.”

Lucia Kelly: The problem is that Rose is in a toxic relationship and she doesn’t know it or want to acknowledge it.

Talia Franks: Yeah.

Lucia Kelly: That’s the issue, but it turns into this victim-blaming mess, where everyone around her recognizes — like, even The Doctor recognizes — that they shouldn’t be together, but it’s framed as “We’re doing this for your own good, you silly little girl,” but also, paradoxically in tangent with that, “This is the greatest love story ever told.” Pick a side. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Ugh, can we, okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. This love story. Can we just talk about this moment on the beach? It’s so disgusting to me that when she chokes out that “I love you,” his response is “Quite right, too.”

Lucia Kelly: Just say it back, you bastard! What the fuck? (Lucia wheezes a laugh)

Talia Franks: Just, first of all, just say it back. Two of all, the arrogance of saying “Of course you love me. Quite right that you love me.” Like, that, that’s just, ughhhhhhh.

Lucia Kelly: Eeugh!

Talia Franks: It’s so disgusting. I hate it so much.

Lucia Kelly: And like, the fact that we’re not even — like, it can’t even be that this is the end, because we’re going to go two beautiful seasons with Martha and Donna, and then we’re gonna be right back on that same beach at “Journey’s End” and the whole mess that is the Ten Two ending.

Lucia Kelly: They don’t even have the audacity to fix it.

Talia Franks: Okay, but, speaking of kisses, can we talk about the fact that Jackie just smooches the Doctor multiple times when he shows up? (Talia laughs)

Lucia Kelly: There are so many kisses, Ten smooches Mickey on the forehead! Also, Ten and Mickey seem to have like, completely mended their relationship. They’re on good terms for some reason.

Talia Franks: No but Jackie just kisses The Doctor ferociously, multiple times.

Lucia Kelly: For why? What happened to the Jackie that slapped the man?

Talia Franks: What’s with the kissing?

Lucia Kelly: What’s with the kissing?!

Talia Franks: And what’s with Rose needing to do laundry?

Lucia Kelly: There is no way in the entirety of this universe that the TARDIS does not have a laundry.

Talia Franks: The TARDIS does have laundry, okay? This is established in the comics with Ten and his companion, Gabby. They have a laundry machine. I know because there’s like, a mud monster that infects the laundry machine.

Talia Franks: It’s kind of a hilarious comic. But there is a laundry machine on the TARDIS, okay? The TARDIS has a laundry machine. She’s clearly only asking her mum to do her laundry, as an excuse to come home. But again, she’s not even using her cell phone, like Jackie says, “I don’t know why you bother with that phone. You never use it.” Is Jackie paying for this phone that Rose never uses?

Lucia Kelly: Is Jackie paying the wild phone bill that having a universal time-hopping phone — I sure hope when The Doctor did the little do-dad, that he also made that thing free!

Talia Franks: Yeah! And also, when Jackie does laundry, she has to go to laundromat, so she’s paying to do laundry, that the TARDIS has a laundry machine that’s free!

Lucia Kelly: Jackie should be bringing her laundry to the TARDIS!

Talia Franks: Exactly!

Lucia Kelly: That’s what should be happening!

Talia Franks: Mm-hmm.

Lucia Kelly: The disrespect.

Talia Franks: Of course, then she might end up on Mars. So …

Lucia Kelly: Oh my gosh. (Talia laughs softly) The way we were robbed of having Jackie as a companion for two or three episodes, I’d want it so badly.

Talia Franks: Also, I feel like there are so many instances, where the companions have such interesting extended family that I would love to see on the TARDIS. I would love to see Jackie on the TARDIS. I would love to see Wilf on the TARDIS. I would love to see — We got a little bit of Rory’s dad on the TARDIS. I would love to see more of him on the TARDIS.

Talia Franks: I would love to see Grace, Ryan’s Nan — What happened to her, I cannot abide, but I would’ve loved to have her on the TARDIS, like, honestly, can we just swap her out for Graham?

Lucia Kelly: Right? We all know who should have been on the TARDIS.

Talia Franks: We all know who should have been on the TARDIS. Like, it should have been Grace. It should have been Gr — like, Graham even says at her funeral, “It should be her here instead of me.” And it’s like, “Damn right. It should be her instead of you!” I will never be over Grace O’Brien. I will never be over Grace O’Brien dying. Never. (Transition wobbles)

Lucia Kelly: So Pete says, that they ran into trouble, with trying to rid their world of Cybermen because people started committees basically, and were like, “The Cybermen are people too. The degree of sentience is unknown. And you can’t just eradicate these people without investigating that.” Which when Pete says it, sounds like “Well, yeah, of course, they’re Cybermen, we’ve established this. Once they’re gone, they’re gone.”

Lucia Kelly: But then Yvonne remembers. Yvonne is still her. She’s sentient. She remembers. She has a goal. She goes against Cybermen command.

Talia Franks: Yeah. And if you think about, on that alternate universe, when they disable the emotional inhibitor that other Cyberman remembered that it was the night before her wedding.

Lucia Kelly: Right? So —

Talia Franks: They do have sentience. They do remember who they are.

Talia Franks: It’s not that simple. I feel like there is a world where they could potentially alter the Cybermen so that they had their emotions without pain. I know that The Doctor could do it. I know that The Doctor could do it.

Lucia Kelly: Also, like, you don’t have to look like a Cyberman as well.

Lucia Kelly: This opens up a whole new world of like, “Okay, this absolutely horrific thing has been done to you. But it’s a shell. It’s external armor. We can transfer that to a different shape, to a different thing.” One of the big things, when we’re first introduced to the Cybermen, is that it’s their appearance that drives them mad. Like, the fact that they’ve been turned into these Cybermen is part of the horror of it.

Lucia Kelly: But, it literally doesn’t have to be like that. Like, there are possibilities here.

Talia Franks: Yeah. Even what happens to Bill — as much as I hate it — she remembers and retains who she is, and eventually her consciousness is transferred into that weird oily, alien body, whatever. But the point is, she’s able to have her consciousness transferred out of the Cyberman body and become a different shape.

Talia Franks: It’s possible for people to recover from becoming Cybermen. It’s possible for their consciousness to be transferred. They don’t have to be exterminated or killed or whatever. Someone like The Doctor who has that capability — Like, they had all the Cybermen contained into these factories. I feel like they absolutely could contain the Cybermen and transfer their consciousness.

Talia Franks: It doesn’t have to be this way.

Lucia Kelly: It doesn’t have to be this way. I would love to see that explored, maybe not in an actual episode, but maybe in a comic or maybe in a novel, the idea of a recovered Cybermen settlement, like, a collection of people who were Cybermen and are now okay.

Talia Franks: Yeah.

Ad break

Talia Franks: Is there anything else you wanna talk about before we move on to favorite moments?

Lucia Kelly: Oh! Yes! The psychic paper works on technology? Question mark? Question mark? Question mark?

Talia Franks: (Talia huffs a laugh) Yes. I noticed that. Psychic paper—

Lucia Kelly: What?!

Talia Franks: You can use it as a little tap card? (Lucia makes a noise that is half-yep half laugh to express how incredulous she is)

Talia Franks: But it doesn’t always work on people. but it works on technology, like how —

Lucia Kelly: Right?!

Talia Franks: How do they have psychic training, so that the psychic paper doesn’t work on them, but they haven’t put a blocker so the psychic paper doesn’t work on their tap cards.

Lucia Kelly: It makes no sense.

Talia Franks: Actually — Okay, before we move on, I do have another point.

Talia Franks: Raj? Rajesh Singh. What happens to him is so egregious, but also, that is one of the most common names they could have possibly given him. Singh is the second most common last name in India.

Lucia Kelly: Right? The fact that like, It’s just such a consistent issue at this point. I was gonna bring this up before — The fact that — whatever his name is — Gavin, Adeola’s side piece, (Lucia and Talia laughs) the fact that Gavin goes in first, but it’s Adeola that gets focused on? It’s again, centralizing the pain of people of colour. For no damn reason! Other than unexamined racism and bias. It’s just — I hate it.

Lucia Kelly: Also he’s so sweet. He’s like “Samuel! What are you doing?” I wanna see the whole workplace comedy that is Mickey infiltrating Torchwood, and then having to work under Raj. There’s at least a five part series in that. I want it.

Lucia Kelly: Also again, this is just repeating points, but like, (Lucia sounds briefly muffled as though she’s covering her face in frustration) Mickey and Rose, man, Mickey and Rose. They never figure it out. They never sort it out. They never do it. He calls her “babe”?

Lucia Kelly: He has this little line about like, “I love how you talk technical to me.” (Lucia makes a noise of disgruntlement)

Lucia Kelly: Stop it.

Lucia Kelly: All right. Favorite and least favorite moments.

Lucia Kelly: Well, I know my favourite moment, so least favourite moment is —

Lucia Kelly: Least favorite moment is when The Doctor and Pete put the ring — the little doovers — over Jackie and Rose and then Pete pulls them away from — from Jackie, and she’s just screaming and weeping, and that whole, that — all of that.

Talia Franks: Oh my God. That was honestly the worst. I could not — I couldn’t bear to look at the screen during that.

Talia Franks: Also, honestly, these whole two episodes were so difficult to watch that it took me multiple hours, ’cause I kept pausing and having to take breaks, ’cause these whole two episodes were just so stressful. Just so stressful.

Talia Franks: Like, I know that Doomsday is like, held up as such a great episode, but I just hate it.

Talia Franks: I just hate this episode with a visceral intensity. I think I had to pause it like, 10 times cause I just was so frustrated, so stressed. It was a slog. It was a slog to get through.

Talia Franks: But yeah, that is also definitely my least favorite moment.

Lucia Kelly: What was your favourite moment though?

Talia Franks: When Rose and Ten are separated because (sounds of Lucia laughing and hitting the table) they deserve it? I’m so glad that Rose is finally gone.

Talia Franks: My, my favorite moment is when Donna shows up because it’s—

Lucia Kelly: Right?! That’s mine! DONNA!!!!

Lucia Kelly: I’m so excited.

Talia Franks: I’m so excited. I’m so excited that we’re finally escaping Rose. We’re out of the Rose hell hole. (Lucia is wheezing from laughter)

Talia Franks: Honestly, Pete should never have caught her. She should have just gone into the void.

Talia Franks: Then we would be rid of her for good. (Lucia continues to steadily wheeze from laughing)

Talia Franks: I’m kidding. I’m kidding. Mostly.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no, we’ve got Donna, (Lucia claps once in enthusiasm) and then we’ve got Martha, and then we’ve got Donna again! And then Rose comes back very briefly, but —

Talia Franks: Bleugh.

Lucia Kelly: — Shhhhh. We don’t need to worry about that.

Talia Franks: I hate that Donna’s season is so polluted with Rose. Like Rose just sprinkles, all throughout Donna’s season.

Talia Franks: She just keeps popping up like a bad penny, (Lucia snorts) and I’m like, “Couldn’t Donna just have a season by herself?” I mean, I like Martha’s episodes, where she pops up as a guest star. I find Martha coming back great, in The Sontaran Strategem, in The Doctor’s Daughter, like, those episodes where Martha is like a companion alongside Donna, I love it because I think Martha and Donna have great chemistry as companions. Martha and Donna, as a team with Ten? All three of them traveling together, would’ve been (Talia makes a kissing noise) chef’s kiss. If Donna had stayed on for all of Season Three alongside Martha, I wouldn’t have been mad about it.

Lucia Kelly: The fact that Catherine Tate only has one season physically pains me. The fact that Donna only got one season is a crime.

Talia Franks: On the one hand, I love that Martha had a season on her own because I loved having a Black companion just by themself, without having person to like, anchor them? (Lucia mhmms)

Talia Franks: Obviously that was The Doctor. Cause every season after Martha’s, when we had a Black companion, there was also a white companion. Like, Bill had Nardole. Ryan had Graham, and Yaz, but Yaz is fantastic. I’ll never complain about Yaz. But Martha was the last time we had just a Black companion.

Talia Franks: But at the same time, Martha and Donna have such great chemistry. I wasn’t mad about Martha coming in on Donna’s season. (Transition wobbles)

Talia Franks: Who’s The Hero and The Adam?

Lucia Kelly: You know I wanna give The Hero to Jackie. I just need to figure out a way to rationalize it. But — (Lucia trails off into a burst of laughter)

Talia Franks: You had all before this episode to prepare.

Lucia Kelly: I know.

Talia Franks: You didn’t have to wait until we were already recording.

Talia Franks: I… want to give the Adam to The Doctor because he’s paternalistic and annoying.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah, no, the Adam is definitely The Doctor. (Lucia sighs) It’s so — Oh! There is something I wanted to talk about before we did all this bit.

Talia Franks: Okay.

Lucia Kelly: The Doctor as war veteran. Finally! Like, I feel like this season, of Ten — I feel like I have waited for this side of Ten to reveal himself. The way that David Tennant plays tired is so compelling. I adore it.

Lucia Kelly: The way that in these two episodes, in particular, you feel the weight of every single — not only every year that The Doctor has been alive, but like every second. The full weight — like, the reaction of seeing the Daleks and realizing that the Daleks are here. The way that he, multiple times throughout these two episodes doubles down on his “no weapons” policy. The way that he talks about — like, the line where he’s talking about being on the front lines and the delivery of how he says, “And one day I might even come to terms with that.” This is The Doctor I been waiting for. It’s so good. This is what Eccleston brought and Tennant is holding up. I’m so happy we finally get to see it.

Talia Franks: Yeah, it is definitely, definitely something that I am I am eager to see. And I am glad to see that we’re finally getting. Um, I’m gonna give you time to think about Jackie as The Hero while I go. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: You have a little bit more time to deliberate.

Talia Franks: I’ll be right back

(Transition wobbles)  

Talia Franks: All right, you’ve had your time. What’s your verdict.

Lucia Kelly: All right. Here’s what I got.

Lucia Kelly: (Talia laughs) Without Jackie, there would be no Rose. (Talia snorts) And Rose, despite it all, does ensure that the gate stays open long enough to get rid of all Cybermen and Daleks. And she would not have that tenacity and bulshy behavior, if Jackie hadn’t raised her. So in fact it was Jackie’s victory all along. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Yeah, but Rose is the one who did it. So you’re saying that Rose is the Hero, not Jackie. (Lucia grumbles discontentedly)

Lucia Kelly: Has Rose ever been The Hero? Ever?

Talia Franks: I think Rose might have gotten The Hero in “Rose,” actually.

Lucia Kelly: She might also have gotten it in “The Unquiet Dead”, possibly. No! Gwen did. Of course.

Talia Franks: Yeah. Gwen got The Hero in “The Unquiet Dead.”

Lucia Kelly: You know what? I’m okay with her getting it at the beginning and the end. I did find it interest — the parallels between “Rose”, like the Episode One, “Rose,” and “Doomsday” were funny to me. The most obvious one is when The Doctor is speaking to her in her dreams, whatever, but she, she like bolts out of bed (Lucia laughs while speaking) in the exact same way that she did in the pilot. Which is funny to me.

Lucia Kelly: And also, delightful, they had that same elevator shot, the same shot of the lift, when they all go up in the lift. Also! Oh my Gosh. We haven’t even talked about Jake! Beloved. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: I love Jake.

Lucia Kelly: Hang on. How can I make Jake The Hero? (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Jake is the one who pointed out that they should go into the lift, and if they hadn’t taken the lift, they would’ve taken them a lot longer to get upstairs.

Lucia Kelly: There it is! Also, he never violates anyone’s consent or assumes to know better than anyone else, which is another point in his favour.

Talia Franks: And Jake came in right at the right time to stop all the Cybermen from killing The Doctor. Yeah. So Jake is The Hero.

Lucia Kelly: Jake is The Hero!

Talia Franks: Jake is the one who was like, really leading the resistance on the ground.

Lucia Kelly: Sure was!

Talia Franks: So Jake is The Hero. We got there.

Lucia Kelly: Jake is The Hero. We got there. We got there in the end.

Talia Franks: We got there in the end. Okay. Now, grading.

Lucia Kelly: Oh boy.

Talia Franks: Oh boy. Okay. This is the part where people are gonna get mad at us. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: Okay. Production.

Lucia Kelly: I’m trying so hard not to judge the CGI.

Talia Franks: Yeah. The CGI was bad. It was 2006!

Lucia Kelly: But, it was also 2006.

Lucia Kelly: The part that really — That makes me giggle every time is at the end when all the Cybermen just lift up together? It’s just delightful. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: The part that makes me cringe is when Rose is falling into the void and that whole —

Lucia Kelly: Right? It just takes that little bit too long. (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: And like, the effect of her like, and it’s kind of blurry, and she’s — No, I can’t. I can’t do it. I know it was 2006, but I feel like there was a better way to do that effect.

Lucia Kelly: Also — (Lucia sighs) This might be more writing than production, but the fact that like, the way that they convey “This is happening everywhere!” is a stock image of the Taj Mahal and then that deeply offensive little Japanese new segment.

Talia Franks: Yeah, no. I can’t do that. No.

Lucia Kelly: Like that whole section is just — give it a three or a four.

Talia Franks: Three.

Lucia Kelly: Three. Writing, similarly, three?

Talia Franks: No, I wanna give it a two because the — (Lucia lets out a burst of laughter) Come on.

Lucia Kelly: Alright.

Talia Franks: — the lack of consent, the —

Lucia Kelly: Lack of consent, completely overriding Rose, writing the garbage, trash carousel, wheel of fire that is the Ten Rose relationship as romantic.

Talia Franks: No. I can’t deal with — 2, 2, 2.

Talia and Lucia together: 2.

Talia Franks: Um —

Lucia Kelly: Now —

Talia Franks: Acting.

Lucia Kelly: Now don’t hate me. I really don’t like Billie’s acting in that final scene.

Talia Franks: I also don’t like it. I don’t hate you. I agree.

Lucia Kelly: It’s so much. And it’s also the fact that — it’s also the fact that The Doctor is, like, Tennant, Tennant is not matching Piper’s energy.

Talia Franks: He’s really not.

Lucia Kelly: Like — And it just sort of, highlights how it’s not done well.

Talia Franks: He’s like a cardboard box. And she’s like —

Lucia Kelly: Well, he’s doing like, understated tragedy and she’s doing soap opera. Which, if they matched, both would be fine. Like —

Talia Franks: No! That’s what I mean! I’m not saying like, his acting is bad. I don’t mean cardboard box in that his acting is bad. If he’s a cardboard box, she’s apple sauce. They don’t mix.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah.

Talia Franks: I’m not saying like, in the sense of bad, I’m saying they’re very different textures

Lucia Kelly: Yeah.

Talia Franks: I don’t know why I thought cardboard box and apple sauce, but I’m saying like they really don’t match.

Lucia Kelly: Yeah. But I also feel bad because like, basically the end of the line is that I wanna give the acting a four …

Lucia Kelly: But the only other time we’ve given the acting of four was also because of Billie doing crying acting and I feel bad about it.

Talia Franks: But I think it’s a nice book end. We give acting (Lucia bursts into a laugh) a four at the beginning of Season Two. We’re giving acting a four, the end of our season two. It’s a nice book end.

(Transition wobbles)

Talia Franks: Okay. Science.

Lucia Kelly: Science.

Lucia Kelly: The psychic paper with the tech. Just — what? But everything else, kind of, works.

Talia Franks: No, I don’t like the clamp and the fact that they didn’t get pulled into the void. ‘Cause, I’m sorry, there’s no way that they — like, the clamps were strong enough, but there’s no way that they had the arm strength.

Lucia Kelly: Right? Have they been doing like, pullups in the — Is there secret footage?

Talia Franks: The fact that Rose was strong enough to push against the force of the entire void sucking her in, to push that lever up? There’s no way. There’s no way.

Talia Franks: So I wanna give the science a three, or maybe even a two. It’s bad. It’s bad science.

Lucia Kelly: Bad science.

Talia Franks: What do you think?

Lucia Kelly: I think a three, but only because it’s only those two glaring issues. I like the void stuff. I like the using the glasses. I think it’s funny. I loved the way that they explained the metaphor of using the glass.

Talia Franks: Also the glasses come back in one of my favorite, Doctor Who books, which is Doctor Who: Legends of Camelot with the Tenth Doctor and Donna, and they get sucked into this universe where Arthurian legends are real, and basically the glasses let The Doctor and Donna see through the illusion. ‘Cause it’s basically people in this universe are being forced to like, act out the Arthurian legends.

Talia Franks: Their lives are being co-opted to play out the legends. Like, people are cast into the roles of Arthur, Guinevere, and like, Lancelot. They all have to act them out over and over again, as a game that’s being played by these two figures that are playing against each other, like cosmic beings, like, Morgana and Arthur are forced by this other cosmic being named Merlin into playing this game.

Talia Franks: And like, they’re basically asleep, and their dream is that they’re in this world playing out the game. And The Doctor and Donna basically go into this universe and they can see through the illusion that Merlin has cast using the glasses.

(Transition wobbles)

Lucia Kelly: All right.

Talia Franks: Rewatchability.

Lucia Kelly: Rewatchability.

Lucia Kelly: One? (Lucia laughs)

Talia Franks: I wanna give it a zero. I hate these episodes. I never rewatch them. It was painful. I only rewatched them ’cause you made me. Let’s give it a 0.5.

Lucia Kelly: Oof. 12.5 out of 25.

Talia Franks: That is a 50%, which is solidly an F.

Lucia Kelly: You failed!

Talia Franks: So, that leaves us with, final grade for production: 4.25, 85% which is a B.

Talia Franks: Writing, 3, 60%. That is a F.

Talia Franks: Acting, 4.9, 98%. That is an A+.

Talia Franks: Science 2.9, 58%. That is an F.

Talia Franks: Rewatchability, 3.15, 63%. That is a D-.

Talia Franks: All right. Total grade for the season, 73%. Season Two gets a C!

(Transition wobbles)

Talia Franks: Join us next time for our Season Two wrap up episode, where we get to talk about the season as a whole, all that fun stuff.

Lucia Kelly: I think we’re gonna be pretty kind. I think we’re gonna be pretty reasonable and — (Lucia bursts into laughter)

Lucia Kelly: It’s definitely gonna be an episode,

Talia Franks: An episode, yeah.

Talia Franks: And this is compared to Season One, got a C plus, 78%.

Talia Franks: All right. Until next time.

Lucia Kelly: Bye.

Talia Franks: Bye!

Lucia Kelly: Thank you for listening to The Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Podcast.

Talia Franks: We hope you enjoyed this adventure with us through space and time.

Lucia Kelly: You can find us elsewhere on the internet on Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram @WibblyPod. Follow us for more Wibbly Wobbly content.

Talia Franks: You can find out more information about us and our content on wibblywobblytimeywimey.net, and full transcripts for episodes at wibblywobblytimeywimey.net/transcripts.

Lucia Kelly: If you’d like to get in touch with us, you can also send us an email at wibblywobblytimeywimeypod@gmail.com.

Talia Franks: Please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and other platforms as it helps other people find us and our content.

Lucia Kelly: If you’d like to support us, you can send us a donation at paypal.me/wibblypod

Talia Franks: Special thanks to our editor, Dee who has been a vital member of the Wibbly Wobbly Team.

Lucia Kelly: That’s all for now. Catch you in the time vortex!